Feedback discussions - Tammy D. Sundby Continued...
I have snipped some repetative emails, then I recieved the following...
discrimitively calls charismatic people "crazy." I somehow get the
feeling you never read the books I suggested, nor will you. Besides the
Bible, there are plenty of books testifying of miracles, plenty of
people who will do the same. Not too long ago a friend of ours brought
us to his church in which the entire congregation was praying in
tongues. We found out our friend does too, he told us how the first
time the pastor laid his hands on him in prayer, his body fell to the
ground. His body didn't know why, but it just wanted to lay. I 'm not
trying to convert you. I just don't like that you haven't given enough
creedence to people's testimony. You've blatenly stated that you think
charismatic people are crazy. All my friends are not crazy, they pray
in tongues, and they instantly got the gift basically the same way (a
pastor or person who prays in tongues laid their hands on them in
prayer).
I'm sorry if my remark about thinking charismatics were probably "crazy" sounds
discriminative. However, it wasn't quite the blatant accusation you portray.
<< You've blatenly stated that you think
charismatic people are crazy. >>
However I did not "blatantly state" any such thing. You have to give me credence
too and read my material with more care.
What I actually said was "I was always unhappy with anything at all
fundamentalist in religion and thought that "charismatics" as we called them
were a bit disturbing and probably crazy. It didn't seem to have much to do with
religion as I knew it." As you should know from my site, this is what I thought
when I was a Christian. So I did not "blatantly state that I think charismatic
people are crazy." Instead, I reported that when I was a Christian, I thought
that they probably were crazy. There are many things I thought as a Christian
that I do not think now.
I actually now think that charismatic behaviour is very normal, as it appears
over a spectrum of religions, cults and even secular cults (see
http://www.freedomofmind.com). However, I still find some extreme religious
emotional behaviours disturbing and unhealthy.
Do you think any non-Christian religions are crazy? Are atheists crazy in your
opinion?
<< I somehow get the feeling you never read the books I suggested, nor
will you. >>
I certainly have read some of them. I even corrected you on a title! Indeed I
read voraciously as a Christian. What have you read that is critical of
Christianity?
However, as I said before, you really must remember that my website is not just
about me. Try and look at the larger picture. Even if I personally had never
read any pro-Christian material or apologetics (which certainly is not the case)
do you really think that nobody who has read the books you quote has left
Christianity? What do you think ex-ministers, priests, missionaries and other
well-churched Christians have been reading?
It is quite absurd to think that ex-Christians have an inadequate background in
Christian apologetics. Some time reading the deconversion stories on my site
will show you this.
Also, as I said before, the full range of Christians leave Christianity, even
including those who spoke in tongues. I already wrote to you as follows:
>People leave from every variety of Christianity including those who fit your
>description, doing cartwheels for Jesus and having "invited him into their
>lives" etc. My site is not just about me, although I certainly felt and
>believed that I had Jesus in my life (or rather he was life itself!) and you
>will find such testimonies if you surf around.
I wasn't making this up, and I will demonstrate the truth of this below.
There have been a number of threads on the "ex-tian" (ex-Christian)
mailing list from people who used to speak in tongues as Christians.
As ex-Christians they could still do it. People do it in other religions
too. Glossolalia is hardly unique to Christianity and I do not see why
it is seen as miraculous - especially as the exact same phenomena
happens in religions you would claim were "false." Look up "glossolalia"
in a psychology book, or even medline! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/
"Emmahubbaba-amanicahina-emminimuna!" = "Jesus will do great things in the
lives of the youth of our church!" Anyone can do it - I just made that up!
"Schamalukani-prestinaka halaluka mishticanici!" = "Krishna will bring great
numbers to himself!" and so on...
<< I somehow get the feeling you never read the books I suggested, nor
will you. >>
Since you disapprove of not reading the "other side," then I take it you will
read the following, and read it properly, not just skim-read it.
Here are some quotes from ex-Christians (taken from the ex-Christian archives
http://rabendary.tesp.com/ex-tian/ex-tian.htm) pondering their time when they
spoke in tongues, were slain in the spirit etc.
********Begin quotes**********
...we were known mostly for the "move of the
Spirit", and a very effective praise and worship service. We really were
able to convert people with that-we saw angels, were commanded to speak
in tongues and danced and screamed and sang and were slain in the spirit.
We were known for that most of all, along with our speaking in tongues
and casting demons out of our minds and bodies. they believed adamantly
in healing, inner and outer, so when I saw this on your cult page,
and Randy Clark's name (he was a pretty serious leader) I knew that you'd
been taken in by the same old stuff.
[...]
Sometimes speaking in tongues .... is used as a good lil "mantra" ...
ie. one preacher I saw once, got his people to start off just sdaying
something like Hubba Bubba ...
I mean sheesh ... a bubblegum label used to springboard off into
glossolalia?
But it worked, and people bought it ...
[...]
Isn't the "Toronto Blessing" the "laughter blessing?" Just wondering. I was a
charismatic for a while, and can still speak in tongues whenever I wish. I
believe Rob Berry can too. Just a note to let you know that there's two books
written by a former Pentecostal minister, one of which is called DON'T CALL ME
BROTHER, which discusses a lot of the different "blessings" in the
charismatic/Pentecostal genre which made the rounds at Jim and Tammy's
Bakker's religious amusement park.
[...]
I was definitely quite religious at one
time. We're talking speaking in tongues, casting out demons, the works.
[...]
"Being slain in the spirit" was really popular in the 80's. It
was so prevalent that people would be in private prayer groups and people
would fall down ("slain in the spirit").. and someone would be behind them
to catch them as they fell. So in order to stop this, the leader of the
prayer group said that from that moment on, nobody would be behind anyone
"slain in the spirit" to catch them as they fell. If God was causing them
to be "slain in the spirit", He would protect them from being hurt if they
fell. Suddenly, this practice stopped. :)
[...]
It is like many other uninhibited
activities. A person is assembled with others, and sees others speaking
in tongues. There is no rhyme or reason to it. It is assumed to be holy.
The person is told to want it, because it is a gift from God. It becomes
a have-to type of thing, because if the person does not eventually speak
in tongues, the person is not as spiritual, or as good a Christian.
Finally the person realizes only a few loose, unattached, syllables are
required, and begins to speak. It really isn't very hard.
[...]
As somebody who used to speak in tongues as a Christian, and who can
still do it when he wants to, perhaps I can shed some light on this.
Mind you, it's been nearly six years since I've been a Christian, so
my theology might be a bit rusty.
At its most basic, speaking in tongues is just babbling incoherently.
In Christian belief, there are generally two types of tongues:
"interpreted" and "uninterpreted". Interpreted tongues is where a
person speaks in tongues, and then somebody (perhaps the speaker,
perhaps somebody else) translates the "message from God" into
English. This message could be an exhortation, a prophecy, a "word
of knowledge", or even a warning. Interpreted tongues are nearly
always public, since there is the presumption that the tongues are a
"message", and there's no point in delivering a message when there's
nobody around to hear it.
Uninterpreted tongues are just that; the nonsense starts pouring out
with no interpretation. Different Christians will give you different
interpretations as to the point of this version of tongues. Some
would say that the person is using a "spiritual language", unique to
each person, to pray to God. Others would say it's simply a form of
worship, like singing or dancing or normal praying. Some charismatics
believe that uninterpreted tongues are not of God (and thus are of
the devil) because there is no message in them, and therefore no
point in it. Others say that while there is no cognitive message,
uninterpreted tongues form a vital component of worship. Very few
would say that tongues are a necessary condition for salvation, but
I'm sure such Christians exist.
The "secular explanation" is that the people are babbling
incoherently. And that's it. When I first became interested in
speaking tongues, I was under the impression that God was supposed to
"possess" the speaker, take control of his/her body, and speak the
syllables without any effort on the part of the speaker. Sort of
like being demonically possessed, only backwards. :-) This
impression is common among both non-Christians, and Christians who do
not speak in tongues. It is this idea of involuntary babbling that
makes speaking in tongues seem so difficult to explain.
The reality, though, as any tongue-speaking Christian will tell you,
is that the person must deliberately speak. God (so they say) will
not take control of you; you have to deliberately speak yourself.
God (allegedly) will give you the syllables as you start to speak,
but it is you who must do the speaking. Think of it as a faucet;
once you turn it on, the water will flow, but the water doesn't force
its way out of the faucet. When I attended a class on learning to
speak in tongues, we were told simply to open our mouths, start
speaking, and trust that God would give us the syllables to say. It
was pretty bizarre, at first, since there is the usual embarrasment
factor ("I feel like an idiot doing this"), plus a guilt factor ("if
I can't do this, is it because I lack faith or have some sin in my
life") and even a fear factor ("how do I know this is God's tongues
and not a Satanic counterfeit"). One trick that my teacher
recommended was to praise God in a foreign language, and use that as
the "jumping off point" to get into tongue speaking. Since I knew
some rudimentary Spanish, I took this approach, and was able, after
an hour or so, to get about three syllables of gibberish out of my
mouth while speaking a sentence in Spanish. According to my teacher,
that was the start. Later that night, I managed to get a whole
sentence (about 12 syllables) out while praying. It wasn't long
before I could babble on at length.
So the secular explanation is simply that you begin deliberately
talking nonsense, after first overcoming the natural embarrasment
factor. It gets easier with practice, especially since when you
speak in tongues in a worship service, you are surrounded by friends
who encourage you and respond positively to your success in tongue-
speaking. That, and the positive emotions that flow naturally
during a worship service, quickly cause tongue-speaking to be
associated with feelings of happiness and ecstasy, which of course
makes it easier the next time around. Indeed, it's been six years
since I spoke in tongues, yet to this day, whenever I speak in
tongues for more than about thirty seconds, I can feel the same
"welling up" inside me that I did when I was a Christian, although
the feelings are now just an amorphous glob of ecstasy, instead of
being directed towards God. (There was a time when I was afraid to
talk in tongues for too long, for fear I might lose the sanity I
had found. I haven't had that fear in a long time, though; sanity
is now a deeply ingrained habit of mine. :-)
In case you're wondering why I still speak in tongues now that I'm an
atheist, the answer is that I usually don't. I do occasionally sing
in tongues, though. I love listening to music, and while a Christian,
I developed a habit of singing in tongues, especially when listening to
instrumental music. The habit occasionally resurfaces, and I don't
really mind it when it does. It's not something sent from God, and
it isn't particularly useful, but it can be enjoyable, so I figure,
why not? I've met one or two other atheists who can also still speak
in tongues, although I can't remember now who they are.
[...]
My Pentacostal/Charismatic friends convinced me that anyone could
speak in tongues and that it was a sign of the Baptism in the Holy
Spirit. Well, I experienced about a minute or so of great joy at a
charismatic living room service, and a few days later I tried "moving my
tongue in faith," and kept repeating whatever syllables came out, even
though they made no sense. Soon I was off and running at the mouth. The
experience for me is directed by me, when to open my mouth and start
speaking in tongues and when to finish. I don't consciously control the
exact formation of the syllables that come out. It's kind of like how a
flag waves in the wind, the way I just let my tongue riff along in jazz
like fashion, without trying to form any particular words. I've noticed
that certain syllables predominate, like the "ya-say" on the ends of
words and certain syllables in the beginning and middle are highly
repetitious. (If you "speak in tongues" then try writing it down
like I once did, phonetically spelling out everything you say, and then
look at all the repetitious endings and phrases). And there is a
definite sing-song, almost rhymning, construction to what I say. And the
length of "speech" is determined more by how much breath I take in than
by what I'm apparently "saying." If I take a deeper breath I exhale a
longer "message." I've also seen people "interpret" tongues, when a
lengthy tongue message gets translated extremely briefly, and vice
versa. That right there "shook" my faith in the truth of "tongues."
There's also a case I read about where a person in church uttered
DELIBERATE nonsense, and somebody stood up and "translated" "Cocacola
cocacola cocacola" into a message direct from God. So, it seems like
nonsense talking, and not a language. In fact, the repetitions proved to
me that the process was natural. Anyone can learn how to do it. Maybe
it's a right brain thing. But just try making a little sound, one or two
syllables, and repeat it. Just kind of whatever flops out of your mouth.
Maybe start with "Ya," ya ya ya, and add a "da," Ya da Ya da Ya da, more
syllables will follow, just repeat them over and over, and soon you'll
be varying them and making your own tongues riffs.
[...]
P.J. O'Rourke, in his recent book, ALL THE TROUBLE IN THE WORLD,
describes attending a genuine Haitian voodoo service, held by some very
nice people, where he says they "spoke in tongues" and did other things
that sound a lot like what happens at some wild Pentecostal meetings.
Also, the religious church of the WORD OVER WORLD, or "Wow," which was
founded by Weirwille (spelling correct? He also authored the
controversial book, JESUS IS NOT GOD!) in the 1970s, had an easy time
teaching its members how to speak in tongues.
Martin Gardner, who was the Scientific American puzzle columnist for
several decades, once wrote an article on "speaking in tongues."
Gardner was raised in Tulsa Oklahoma, Oral Roberts country, and was a
fundamentalist in his youth. Today he says that about the best use he
can think of for "speaking in tongues" is to enhance oral sex.
[...]
Some Christian groups view being 'baptized in the spirit,' ie. speaking in
tongues, to be more important than water baptism. To these Christians, the
way to tell if someone is truly a Christian is if they can speak (or have
spoken) in tongues.
What they choose to ignore is that 'tongue speakers' who leave the faith,
still retain the ability to speak in tongues, proving it is a natural event
and not one from any god.
[...]
Actually, glossalalia IMHO could be used in just about any religion
that had shamanic or "personal-experience-of-the-divine" overtones.
I understand that the activity leads to a kind of ecstasy similar
to many other practices of this nature, such as ritual dancing,
drumming, or chanting. Of course, the effectiveness of these
practices does not depend on the particular religious system;
glossalalia works just as well for Voudoun folk as it does for
Pentecostals, and has much the same effect.
[...]
the
"tongues" spoken by an individual reflect the normal
language of that individual. A Japanese person speaking
in tongues is not going to have any "L"'s in their
babbling. I've heard that a trained listener can tell
the difference between a New Yorker and a Southerner
speaking in tongues.
[...]
Actually this is true only for those who have never studied
English.
Those who have studied Engrish, consistantry have "L"s whele
the "R"s berong and "R"s whele the "L"s berong. That could
totally change the meaning of the babbling couldn't it?
Obviously, "ugabalirakafulu" and "ugabarilakafuru" are two
entirely different things, right?
[...]
Speaking in tongues in NT times was simply speaking in other languages. When
the apostles were baptized in the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, they
"began to speak with other tongues (plural) as the Spirit gave them
utterance" (Acts 2:4). There were people from all over the known world
present in Jerusalem to celebrate Pentecost, and "every man heard them
speaking in his own language" (v:6-8). The NT doesn't seem to teach that the
apostles spoke a gibberish that everyone heard as his own language but that
the apostles actually spoke in other languages through the power of the Holy
Spirit.
[...]
Even though I felt strongly I was making it all
up, my parents urged me not to let "Satan" tell me I was making it all up and
encouraged me to say whatever syllables came to mind, because that was "the
spirit" descending on me. The pressure from them was incredible, so I
babbled away to please them. Always hated it and felt like a fraud. Now I
seriously wonder how anybody out there speaking in tongues can honestly
believe that it is anything other than in their own head.
[...]
I spoke in tongues too, and still can. Today I'm the author of LEAVING
THE FOLD: TESTIMONIES OF FORMER FUNDAMENTALISTS, which contains a few
testimonies by former tongue speakers like myself.
[...]
Some years ago, when I first encountered "tongues", I read an article in a
sociological journal about studies done on glossolalia. In the article,
the researchers found that recent converts to a glossolalic church were
urged to mimic the language of the more experienced members. This would
seem to make it a learned behavior rather than something spontaneous.
World Harvest Bible College here in Ohio (pastored by the one-and-only Rod
Parsley of "Breakthrough" fame) actually has a class on how to speak in
tongues!
[...]
Ugh! I have a hard time with Ass of God churches. ;) I took the UU high
school youth group (which i co-taught one summer) to see a faith healer at
an Ass of God church once and that was pretty freaky to see all the people
falling on the ground and the guy speaking in tongues and getting people
to "roar like lions" and then asking people to "give a day's pay" at the
end of the meeting and put it in a gold bucket right in front of him so he
could "annoint their hands for prosperity." (the UU kids all decided to go
up and very litterally put their two cents in the bucket. The faith
healer's face got all contorted and red when they did that. You could
just see his jaw clench.)
[...]
I "experimented" with tongues. I certainly wanted it, so I bought the
book "How to Speak in Tongues" by Larry Christenson. I read the whole
thing, and at the end his conclusion was basically just start bablling and
accept by faith that it is tongues (those weren't his exact words). I was
kind of shy, so whnever people around me spoke in tongues I just kind of
babbled to myself, not very loud.
[...]
The first time
I did it, I was 13 years old, and I thought for a half-second how stupid
it was and that I was probably just producing nonsense. My fears were
alleviated when I was done as a lady in the back "interpreted" my
nonsense! I believed at that moment that I had truly spoke from God,
and was congratulated at the end of the service by several church members
for having been "priviledged" enough for God to use me as a vessel of
communication.
[...]
Say this 10 times real fast..."Should have bought a Hundai" and then
you've got it brother...you're speaking in tongues...Double-plus fun,
this tongue-speaking!!!
[...]
>> How exactly did you speak in tongues? Did you learn it, or did you feel it
>> was some type of "supernatural" experience?
>>
It just happened one day while I was praying to God. The pastor , later during
my baptism, tried to make it sound like it happened then and due to the baptism,
but I'd done it for soem time.
The result, I believe, of a planned suggestion better known as mystical
manipulation.
[...]
We were all seated in chairs in a large circle. When the leader
gave the cue, everyone pulled out paper bags. Everyone, that is,
except me. It was at this point that I realized I had been
operating under erroneous assumptions. I had assumed we would be
doing a Bible study on deliverance; that we would examine the
Scriptures to learn more about what it means for us today.
Everyone else there, especially the elders, assumed that everyone
had come FOR deliverance. Oops...
Luckily someone had brought an extra paper bag and gave it to me.
Then it started. You might say all hell broke loose. About half
a dozen elders were inside the circle, going from person to person
to do the actual casting out. Those seated were now coughing,
gagging, screaming, falling from thier chairs, and doing generally
uncontrollable convulsing on the floor. An elder would slam his
hand on someone's forehead and command Satan to leave: "LOOSE your
hold! In the name of Jesus LOOSE your hold!" I quickly realized
the paper bag was to catch the demons that were coughed up,
expelled, cast out, whatever.
Wow! This was exciting! Otherwise normal adults were convulsing
uncontrollably on the floor... even little kids were crying and
coughing up their demons. Of course the little kids had little
paper bags, I guess because their demons were littler.
This was great! I was praying leaning over my paper bag, ready for
God or the elder or anyone to cast out my demon. I prayed, "God,
I'm ready!"... nothing happened. I waited, sincerely believing a
demon was about to leave me. Nothing happened. Soon an elder came
over and asked me "Which one is it?" I looked at him. "What?" I
asked him. "Which demon do you have?" he replied.
I didn't know which demon I had. Just a few minutes earlier I
didn't even know I had any, and now how was I supposed to know its
name? Fortunately, he pulled a sheet of paper out of his pocket,
with an alphabetized list of all the demons. I looked at the list,
praying "God, show me which demon I have!" The list started with
the basics: Demon of Alcohol, Demon of Laziness, Demon of Lust...
wait a minute... yeh, that one. I was a healthy (physically,
anyway) 21 year-old male. "Demon of Lust" I told him. He thrust
his hand on my forehead and screamed "LOOSE your hold!"
Nothing happened. But I believed, and I waited... He tried again.
And again. Nothing happened. He called another elder over. They
tried together. I was ready (but my forehead started to get a
little sore from their constantly hitting it with their hands).
Nothing happened. One of them asked me how I felt. I told the
truth: I felt calm. They looked at each other. Obviously, that
was not the right answer. I was supposed to be gagging and
convulsing. Then one said "We've been in this ministry for 15
years, and it's always worked before!" I started to feel bad for
ruining their perfect record. I really did.
They tried again and again, but nothing happened. So finally they
gave up and told me I could try to cast demons out of someone else
then.
I was still pretty excited about all this. I got up from my chair,
carefully stepping around thrashing bodies, and gently placed my
hand on someone's forehead. I prayed that God would cast out
whatever demon this person might have. I remember an elder coming
up to me and scolding me: "COMMAND them out, don't PRAY them out!!"
But it was hard for me at that time to be too aggressive, being a
Norwegian bachelor farmer and all.
Finally everyone started to regain composure a little and return to
their seats. I still felt pretty good, just mildy embarrassed
about my reluctant demon. We began to sing again, and I felt more
at ease. Then an elder asked "How many here don't speak in tongues
but would like to?" Like an idiot, I shot my hand up without
thinking. Two of us raised our hands. Then the elder said
"Hallelujah, we haven't missed in 15 years!" and I started to feel
a little sick, worrying about blemishing their perfect record
again.
The two of us knelt on the floor, the others surrounding us and
laying their hands on us. They prayed that we be filled with the
Holy Spirit. I prayed, "God, I'm ready! Give me tongues!" The
other guy kneeling by me immediately broke out into a
"Hallabalulasmabalukasnabalabala..." and everyone was ecstatic.
Fortunately they didn't hear my silence.
But it wasn't over yet; we may have been FILLED with the Spirit,
but we hadn't yet been SLAIN in the Spirit. So we stood up. An
elder hit the guy next to me really hard in he forehead with the
palm of his hand. The guy fell to the floor, slain in the Spirit.
Then it was my turn. The elder hit me in the forehead, knocked me
off balance a little, so I fell to the floor. Again, everyone was
ecstatic over this new miracle. I had been slain in the spirit.
I just lay on the floor and went with it, but I really thought the
elder had pushed me over...
[...]
I did the whole spectrum. I spoke in tongues and all that. I agree with your
premise about competitiveness in feeling good. They want their god to make
everybody happy, whether they like it or not.
[...]
When I read Randi's "The Faith-Healers" on David's advice, I noticed
Randi called it the full equivalent of an incantation. It's not even
that--it's just good old-fashioned stuttering! There are some instances
where we can't find the words to express our feelings about something. As
a result, monosyllables or otherwise unintelligible speech comes out of
our mouths. It's the same way with charismatics. For them, going to
church is like being on an incredible high. They get so excited that
they can't find the words to express their praise. The result--what we
call stuttering, what they call "tongues."
[...]
As I think back about the many things I used to believe (and practice!),
I'm often amused at my own self. But tongues is one of those things
that's absolutely embarrasing. Of course it doesn't make sense, but you
almost have to have practised it yourself in order to understand.
Is it just emotional babbling? Yes and no. Yes, because in order to begin
learning to speak in tongues you almost always have to have an intense
emotional experience. Once you've picked up the habit though, it's
surprisingly easy how you can "intellectualize" it. I remember many times
praying in tongues because the situation seemed to call for it, but doing
it in a solemn fashion with my emotions tightly under control...
The funny thing is, I can still speak in tongues! Halleluja!! Ohn da ri
mimikese, oh ah ri kikishi! ;-) I can even do it in three different
dialects! And it sounds just like it always did. Kind of like learning to
ride a bike, even if you never ride much, you never forget how.... ;-)
[...]
We have had a
few instances of speaking in tongues. Has anyone else heard of "holy
laughter"? It's interesting...The congregation starts to laugh
uncontrollably, supposedly under the influence of the holy spirit. It sort
of feels like being drunk because you lose control of yourself. It is
amazing what can be done with a mass of people who are all thinking alike
and allowing themselves to lose control.
[...]
The Toronto Blessing is known for behavior so bizarre it appalls even
people whose worship normally encompasses the manifestations of talking in
tongues and falling down under the power of God being slain in the spirit.
In Toronto, behaviors that are called manifestations include: uncontrolled
laughter, roaring like lions, crawling on all fours and barking like dogs,
and flapping arms like eagles.
"In Toronto, any manifestation is allowed to occur at any time," Dager said.
[...]
I've actually been "slain in the spirit." The idea behind it is that when the
Holy Spirit comes upon a believer, the believer is "overcome" by the sheer
power of the experience, and in a sense "faints." Its not a real faint that
I've seen.
At any rate, due to the euphoria generated by such gatherings that have such
"slayings," its really a trick of the mind, though I have some evangelists
actually used some force when they "touch" the recipient's forhead (pushing
them into the arms of a waiting usher). Same with speaking in tongues. You
just "let go" and seek the experience. You'll be surprised at how obliging
the body and mind will be to this type of delusion if you just "let go" and
not think or question. Seriously -- it requires an almost total blanking of
the mind with mindless chanting and praising. Very hypnotic reaction in a
sense.
[...]
it was in this church that I was baptized with/in the Holy Spirit.
(By the way, if you weren't careful you could get chewed out for saying "in
the Holy Spirit" instead of "with the Holy Spirit" by some people.) Shortly
thereafter I began expecting to be "used by God" in various ways, meaning that
I would be having a lot of wild experiences. I spoke in tongues (of course),
prophelied, had visions, and the whole can of mixed nuts.
Now for those of you who don't understand how all this works, let me fill you
in. I don't know how it works either. Well, I don't completely understand
it. I do know that if you tell people to expect something enough, they will
get "it" in some form or another. When I was a kid growing up on _Unsolved
Mysteries_ I saw UFOs and Grays all over the place. So it's only natural that
if you tell people that God is going to start showing them things, they *will*
see things.
One occasion that sticks out in my mind like a nun in an orgy was a time that
I was "slain in the spirit". A lot of times this is a result of hucksters who
practically sucker punch proselytes to get them laid out on the floor, but my
experience has been that people have needed to use very little human agency to
knock me over. With the suggestion that I might fall over at any moment
coupled with the mind-numbing effect of speaking in tongues and praying in
that "Yes Lord, Yes Lord, Yes Lord" monotone, I was "sucking carpet" (to use
their own words) in a few.
[...]
This is a big one in the Pentecostal church I used to attend. We were always
going to the altar to get "more of the Holy Spirit". People would speak in
tongues, get slain in the spirit, and have other bizarre things happen to
them, and it was all "spontaneous"--it only happened when people's minds were
prepared for it.
[...]
For
instance, when I was at church for the second week of my infiltration, my
feet gave out from standing in one place for so long. Had I not grabbed a
chair, I would have fallen on my face. Two people behind me laughed--and
I knew why. They thought I was being "slain in the Spirit." And then
there's this business of speaking in tongues. I've said it once, and I'll
keep on saying it until my face turns blue--speaking in tongues is nothing
more than stuttering. For pentecostal/charismatic types, going to church,
praying, or anything spiritual gets them on an incredible high (as I'm
sure you former charismaniacs will agree). It's so
intense that they can't find the words to express their thanks to
"almighty God." To save them the trouble of struggling through the words,
they speak in gibberish.
[...]
Speaking in
tongues is the only evidence most of them hold onto as definitive, and we've
already been through the true nature of speaking in tongues here.
[..]
It sounds like one of Robert Lifton's criteria of mind control, the element
known as "mystical manipulation/planned spontaneity." This, according to
Lifton, refers to events which appear to arise spontaneously out of the
situation, but actually have been orchestrated. This applies to altar
calls, speaking in tongues, "faith healings", and the like.
This type of thing has uses in other areas besides religion -- for example,
a TV studio which films its programs before a live audience to generate
laughter and emotional reactions, and make the show more appealing. I
don't feel this is necessarily wrong in and of itself; however, when it is
used to inordinately influence someone's feelings and views (as in
religion) it can be detrimental.
[...]
I once saw a woman get "slain in the spirit", falling
onto a toddler who was hurt, if only temporarily. Neither the toddler nor the
church at large was given an explanation for why the Holy Spirit directed
something so awful to happen.
********End quotes************
As you can see, none of these people were so impressed by the "miracle" of the
across-the-religions psychological phenomena of glossolalia that they remained
Christians. They can also still "speak in tongues" as atheists, so it's not a
miracle from any god. The early Muslims did it as do Moonies and practicers of
Voodoo. Even Plato writes about it.
Have you ever seen someone have a missing eye grow back? That would be a
miracle, psychological behaviour is interesting, but I would not call it
miraculous.
Much to your probable disgust, there are some people who engage in what is known
as "recreational Christianity" partly because their home life is so surrounded
by religion that they can't avoid church, and have to hide their true beliefs
from their family through fear of repercussions, even though they are not
believers. So they try and make a game out of an otherwise oppressive
situation. Maybe others are more impish. Some people have tried making
up speaking in tongues in church only to have Christians "interpret" pure
made up nonsense, with no inkling that the "miraculous tongue" was just
made up!
If you are a Christian who believes each message has one meaning (there
are different Christian beliefs on this as on pretty much all of Christianity)
then tape an instance of "speaking in tongues" and play it for a different
interpreter. See if they give the same interpretation as the original
interpreter. Alternatively get a number of interpreters to write down their
interpretations as they are listening to some "tongues." Then compare
what they have written.
<< I 'm not trying to convert you. >>
Do you think it is wrong to evangelise? Why then are you writing to me?
<< I just don't like that you haven't given enough
creedence to people's testimony. >>
Goodness me! Of course I have, as have the vast spectrum of diverse
ex-Christians! We once were Christians and lapped up Christian testimony with
great sympathy! Have you given credence to the testimonies at my website? Have
you given credence to comparative religion or even psychology? If so then why
did you think that "speaking in tongues" should be seen as evidence of anything
miraculous?
<< All my friends are not crazy, they pray
in tongues, and they instantly got the gift basically the same way (a
pastor or person who prays in tongues laid their hands on them in
prayer). >>
So? It happens in other religions too. Of course, some Christians (e.g.
Nazarenes) claim tongues are "of the devil" so it is impossible to please all
Christians. Baptists and Pentacostalists are also at loggerheads over speaking
in tongues.
Are you familiar with any psychology of religion? Have you seen what hypnotists
say about these religious behaviours?
From http://www.royhunter.com/HYPNOFAQ.html
"In my opinion, religious cults often control their membership through group
hypnosis. This belief is partly based on my own past experience as a member of a
religious cult. It took several years for me to overcome the guilt and to become
fully "de-programmed" from all the manipulative subconscious programming done by
my former church. So it is now my opinion that some religions regularly
hypnotize their membership without their ever knowing it...One religious
organization actually has practitioners who employ hypnosis under a different
name while telling its members to avoid using hypnosis! "
Did you know that Cult de-programmer, Steve Hassan
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resource/srmind.htm lists speaking in tongues as
one of the thought stopping techniques characteristic of cults? He used to do it
when he was a Moonie. See http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/branch/waco.htm
<< sorry, but I think your research was off the mark. >>
Good - if you are right then that will give me an opportunity to learn something
new. Tell me what is wrong with my research and present the evidence that shows
why I am wrong.
As you do this remember what I have written already and what I am likely to
say in response. That way, if you really do know something I don't then you
might be more likely to tell me something new or present it in a novel way that
neither I or the other ex-Christians I have collected thoughts from will have
heard (or even said themselves) before.
Please do remember that there is more to leaving Christianity than just me. As I
said (did you read my links?) at http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/slocks.htm
"It is a common misapprehension to claim that those who leave Christianity never
understood what Christianity was "really about." The full range of Christian
types leave Christianity, from all denominations, doctrines, and persuasions.
From the most liberal to the most fundamentalist. The philosophical liberal, the
conservative orthodox, the born-again and the hyper-charismatic fundie."
Also, as I said at http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/email.html
"Despite my plea on my homepage, ..." [snipped quote from above URL]
Best wishes,
Steve
----------------
Leaving Christianity: www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html
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