Tuning your instrument
A Collection of posts to the bowed-strings news group about tuning
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My son, age 8, has been taking private violin lessons for two years. I
am
not a musician ( unfortunately ) and we have been having a great deal of
trouble with tuning. His teacher recommended a 'panpipe' because it would
give a pitch for all 4 strings vs. a tuning fork. What recommendations would you
experienced folks have for us ? ...and please respond in language my eight year
old will understand...I want him to learn for himself so he will always have
this
skill. He can tell when it's out of tune...but is lost as to what to do
from there!!!
Thanks...Julianne and Jonah
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A 'Pitch-pipe'. And make sure you get a VIOLIN pitch-pipe, not
guitar
or cello or something else. They sell them at www.sharmusic.com
under 'accessories'.
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First of all, a lot of eight year olds cannot tune a violin because their
fingers aren't strong enough. Even with fine tuners it is difficult for
kids. If his teacher can't teach him how to tune in person, it is expecting
a lot for him to tune from a written description.
Get the pitch pipe, it is fairly inexpensive, and let his teacher work with
him. If he is really uncertain then try one of the electronic tuners. They
work pretty well.
Don't expect miracles from a newsgroup, tuning is something that should be
demonstrated. Yehudi Menuhin had to have the concertmaster tune his violin
for him on his Carnegie Hall debut, because he was not yet strong enough to
turn a tuning peg! Maybe you could tune it for him with an electronic tuner and
some instruction from his teacher.
Pete
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I couldn't really tune my own violin until I was about 12. The first
problem was of course being able to turn the pegs. Its even harder
when you tune as most of us do as adults with the violin in playing
position. Most violins for young players are (and should be) set up
with fine tuners. The teacher will tune it at a (presumably weekly)
lesson. As I recall, I had a four note violin pitch pipe...the blown
kind. Nowadays many of those are electronic. Youngsters often use
steel core strings because they are more stable that gut core strings.
Once strings are stretched, they will remain fairly stable. I seldom
have to do much more than a touch-up with my violin unless it has been
subjected to some extreme temperature changes. The other thing to
remember is that children just starting the violin have to learn the
concept of being "in tune" before they can do meaningful tuning
regardless
of their hand strength. Tailpieces with fine tuners were not common
when I started ( 1952 ) and I really don't remember too well just what I
did for tuning between my weekly lessons. I rather like the idea of
the teacher teaching a parent how to do it. It shouldn't be too hard
for any parent unless they are entirely tone deaf. It also shows the
child that someone cares whether they practice or not.
Jon Teske, violinist
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I agree that the teacher must take the time to teach the child to tune, but
I beg to differ on the statement that an 8-year-old cannot tune his
instrument. I'll wager he does has fine tuners, and that he can turn them if
taught how. My 7 year old, who is tiny for her age (she just this week
graduated to a quarter-size instrument) has been tuning her own violin for a
year and a half. She tunes in play position with the fine tuners to an A,
either from the electronic metronome or a piano, then tunes the other
strings to the A with double stops. She's fast and efficient-- much more so
than when I used to tune it for her-- and if a string goes out of tune while
she's playing, she makes a quick adjustment.
Occasionally the instrument needs an adjustment at the pegs and I do it for
her because the pegs are stiff. (I once accidentally snapped off a peg on
her 1/10 size instrument-- it was a humid summer day.)
If my daughter's new teacher hadn't insisted she tune herself I'm sure she'd
still rely on me to tune it for her. Learning to tune dramatically increased
her sense of ownership over & control of her playing. She is no longer
dependent on my presence as a condition of her approaching the instrument. I
do still supervise her practicing, but I can now say to her, "Why don't you
tune up and get started on scales?" and she's delighted in her autonomy.
Karen
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There are pros and cons to different tuning aids: The pitch pipe is a good
idea
of course, but I am thinking an electronic tuner might be easier in some
respects if the child can interpret it correctly, and not lose it etc.
With a
pitch pipe you might forget the note while you're tuning it, and with an
electronic tuner you can make fine adjustments without having to keep the pipes
in your mouth or put down the instrument to pick it up. BUT on the other
hand,
an electronic tuner can be too visual, and it is good to have training in
comparing two tones to see (no, I mean hear) if they are in tune. Are
there
electric tuners that will "sing" a note for you? I think I have
seen one but it
was really bulky. But I think that is what I would like. For several
years I
used a tuning fork until they kept disappearing from my case in school.
Tuning
forks are a lot of fun to play with as long as you don't dent your instrument
with it. It also is cool to use a traditional object and the physic is so
much
fun. I never actually owned a pitch pipe. There is something I really like about
electronic tuners, though - they can be calibrated to different pitches in case
someone likes 443 instead of 440.
Personal reflections : pegs - I just turned 17, but I am a not-even-five-foot
Asian girl who has always been a wimp, and I still have trouble using the pegs
when I play other people's instruments. I find that I have to keep my pegs
pretty loose compared to other people - I know my own pegs and how they stay in
tune, but I don't push them in as much as other people do because then I will be
unable to tune! If a peg keeps slipping, my teacher sometimes decides to
push it
in for me, and I will have to loosen it to just the right tightness before I can
tune comfortably again! Obviously it is important for me that
the pegs are
well fitted! Another annoying situation is when the peg is at one of those
awkward angles where I can't create any twisting force on it, and it's tight at
the same time.
I can't remember when or how I learned to tune. I think the first time I
attempted it was when I was still playing pieces out of Suzuki book 1 or 2 or
possibly 3. All the strings came out of tune while I was away from home
with no
piano or anything to tune to, and there was no one around who knew how to tune.
My attempt was probably really out of tune. At least I figured some of it
out -
luckily I have always had a fairly good sense of relative pitch- how the
intervals are supposed to be. Most likely I picked it up over the years
listening to music. I think I became more and more sensitive to "in
tune" and
"out of tune", and started tuning with the instrument in my hands or
with fine
tuners, and then I think I asked a teacher to show me why they always
played
two strings when tuning and I learned how to tune perfect fifths - I think it
took some practice because doing this consistently requires listening to fine
distinctions. Now I keep my pegs just the right tightness to allow me to
use
only 1 fine tuner. Tuning one string to any reference and then tuning by
fifths
is, I think, definitely the most fun and interesting way to tune. Too bad
it
takes a while to get the hang of it. From my experiences trying to explain
this
to beginner friends, it seems that beginners usually aren't able to completely
understand this thing of perfect fifths until they are more comfortable with the
instrument.
-Mary Beth Hwang
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I no longer use it, but when I first started, I used an electronic tuner
and found it very helpful. You'd have plenty of opportunity to learn
intonation anyway since the instrument is fretless. At the time, I
reasoned, "why stack the deck against yourself even more?" After the
instrument is properly tuned, any "weird" intonation was obviously my
fault.
A 20$ guitar tuner was quite sufficient for me. YMMV.
Tho
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LMAO! Let me recommend 2 things to you. First the pan pipe for
E<A<D<G<
and an electronic tuner for violin. The pipe is about $5 and a tuner
is
about $20. With the pipe you can get close enough to finish with the
tuner.
The secretary where I work had the same problem and was bringing the violin
for me to tune about 3 times a week. This finally solved her dilemma and
now she can tune the instrument.
CU Mitch
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K. S. Manning, PhD <mannik@rpi.edu>
wrote:
: My son (8 yr) has been playing a while, and I made a violin from a kit for
: my wife. I play guitar. I'm an engineer.
: Why do violins have friction pegs and then attach geared tuners at the
: tailpiece? Wouldn't it make an awful lot more sense (ESPECIALLY for
: beginners) to have geared tuners at the scroll and nothing at the tailpiece?
Violins have friction pegs for tuning because they work very well. At least
for other than steel strings. For steel strings, the fine tuners are added
on the tailpiece. This is usually acceptable because steel strings need
very little tuning, and it's easy enough to hold the violin in your lap
to bow across it and tune with the fine tuners. Most all violins have a steel
E string and fine tuner, though it is easy to get to while the violin is in
playing position.
: My wife won't play her nice emerald-green, hand-made original because I
: can't keep it in tune long enough for her to warm up. Yea, I tried peg
dope
Is this because the pegs are slipping? Is this your first violin? Is there
a chance that the neck or something else is moving and messing up the tuning?
The pegs that came with this kit - are they ebony? boxwood? just wood? That
has a lot to do with how well it tunes and stays in tune. What kind of strings
are you using? If Perlon or gut, they will need to stretch and need to be
tuned many times before they will hold their pitch - and you should not be
using the fine tuners on the tailpiece for those kinds of strings. You might
have a violin shop take a look at it and give you some ideas.
And since you're an engineer, you're used to looking at a problem from all
angles... An emerald-green violin? Painted, I suppose? That would roughly be
the equivalent of wrapping it in a blanket, sound-wise. Maybe she doesn't
care for the sound of it. Getting a quality instrument from a kit would be
quite a trick, I'm afraid. All violins are not created equal. There's a lot
more to it than just the dimensions.
Dave Allen, Colorado springs
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Wow, Jon, thanks for some great insight. Since my wife's violin was
just
> sitting in the basement unused I've decided to go ahead and put on
> mechanical tuners- what have I got to lose? If they don't work I'll
put the
> pegs back in and mount the violin on the wall as a conversation piece.
If
> they do- great, my wife can play it.
>
> I'll post photos of it when I'm done, with comments.
>
> Ken
Hi Ken,
Mechanical tuners have a long history in fiddle music. A lot of old timers
in Appalachia seem to have used them. The main complaint was weight.
Stewart MacDonald has an excellent video on violin setup including
installing pegs. The video has a homemade quality to it, but it is crammed
with information. When they demonstrated installing pegs they really twisted
the pegs into the holes with a lot of friction, as if they were melting the
peg dope into the wood.
I did a similar job on my pegs and they work so-so, but I've always liked
and used a Wittner or Thomastik tailpiece (I've used both) with four fine
tuners built in. I have used them with synthetic strings and steel. I have
Helicore (steel) strings on my main fiddle now. The pegs work, but it is
easier to tune with the fine tuners on the tailpiece.
Do a search on Stewart MacDonald, and check out the video. I'll bet you go
back and refine your work on the violin you made.
Pete
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Well, I did it. I went into the basement and didn't come up until I had
replaced the traditional, non-functional friction pegs with mechanical
tuners. Well, not quite true. I did come up for another beer.
I know, I know. Violinists don't like anything non-traditional, and you
probably don't like beer. :-)
Anyhow, the fiddle works great now (to my standards) and my wife loves it.
You can see it at http://www.rpi.edu/~mannik/violin.html
