Thanks for writing an interesting email.
I have read Jordan's response, although actually there are 2 now, so I am not
certain which one you mean. Anyway the discussion goes so far:-
Me http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jordan.html
Jordan http://www.theism.net/authors/zjordan/locks.htm
Me again http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jreply1.html
Jordan again http://www.theism.net/authors/zjordan/locks2.htm
I found the last one just a few days ago. Although I let Jordan know as soon
as I have a response uploaded, he doesn't tell me about his responses, so I
check his website every week or two.
I am familiar with J.P. Holding's site and other similar sites, such as Glenn
Miller's "Christian Thinktank" at http://www.christian-thinktank.com/ and
other top apologetics sites like "Apologetics Index" at
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b08.html The last two I have written to about
the "Asymmetry of Conversion" that I discuss at a number of places, especially
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/conversion_asymmetry.html
I must say though that I am astonished fundamentalist apologetics are
considered "proofs" of Christianity in the face of the criticism. Some general
criticism is available at
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/apologetics.html
and for Holding in particular try
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/g_a_wells/holding.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/turkel.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/intro.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/apologetic.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/apologetic2.html
I think that often carefully spoken and scholarly apologists can be very
convincing until the arguments are examined carefully. A case in point is the
Perman-Till debate on the resurrection which Perman does a very convincing
job of, and a fine rebuttal until it is completely taken apart by Till. It is
to be found halfway down this page
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/resurrection.html
Farrell Till (himself an ex-fundamentalist preacher as you may know) regularly
takes the microscope to fundamentalists arguments in his publication "the
Skeptical Review" http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/ which is an
entertaining read, let alone an interesting one.
Also of interest are the debates between William Craig and non-Christians.
Craig is no doubt familiar to you and again very convincing until closely
examined. See
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/craig.html for
articles and (half way down the page) some debates.
Even when I was a Christian I was astonished that anybody could swallow
fundamentalism, Adam and Eve, Creationism etc. I have already discussed this
at some length here
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/feedback/mark_mcfall.html (the first
page and a half discusses other matters). Evolution really is a fact, as you
can see at http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=589598604
You may well know that you can debate it to your heart's content at
news:talk.origins which is full of creationists and evolutionists.
<< I would like to comment on the bluntness (both Jordan's and Tekton's); it
isn't quite the way to show Atheists the Godly love that most other Christians
exhibit. Just a pet peeve, but I really wanted to talk to a sympathetic ear
about it. >>
I know what you mean. Both Jordan and J.P. Holding can be quite rude and
childish (Jordan was at his worst in his latest reply at
http://www.theism.net/authors/zjordan/locks2.htm ). It is a shame as Jordan
was very polite at first. Anyway I have interacted with many Christians who
are very civil, even when we disagree. Most examples of my emails don't make
it to my website, but Jim Moretz at
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/feedback/jim_moretz.html was one of
the most civilised.
Also, as you will see from my discussion with Dr. Garrett at
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/feedback/garrett/1.html although I
"went for the jugular" he always remained civil, and I was impressed by that,
even if by nothing else!
Nevertheless Christianity has a horrendous history of the most heinous crimes,
mutual ex-communications etc. so it already has shown itself up as a rotten
tree. http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/3612/shame.html
There is nothing new about bad behaviour from Christians. Nevertheless the
church is indeed broad and there are many different kinds out there. My
Christian experience was very positive and all the Christians I knew were very
good people IMHO. However often the one thing that can turn a Christian into
an angry fellow is criticism of their religion. Those who can take it, like
Craig and Miller, deserve to be read, just like the majority of
atheists/agnostics I have come across who much more frequently are calm or at
least relatively polite in their arguments. (Okay I know that Till can get
excited, but he is as nothing compared to his critics on the rudeness front!)
<< I guess I could tell you my story. I am an agnostic that is thinking about
coming back to Christianity. I *know*, intellectually, that the fundies have a
very strong case and that it is the rational thing to do is to "accept
Christ." >>
I wonder how you know that. If it really is knowledge then nobody would still
be arguing about it, rather such information would have converted everybody.
Speaking from past experience, when fundamentalists claims are examined they
always fall apart. If you do have certain knowledge then let me know what you
have found out, although I would advise following some of the links and
debates first.
<< There's one problem: I can't. I have a very strong emotional blockage and
have awful reactions to conservative Christians, especially fundamentalists,
*especially* "Laodicaeans" like Jordan and the Tekton crew. That is the main
stumbling block to accepting Christ. >>
I think they would claim they were anything but "half-hearted." The trouble is
that it is very difficult to know exactly what Christianity is. One can always
find some Christians who criticise another group for not being "true
Christians," just like you are maybe starting to do? Also note this from
http://www.questioningchristianity.com/testimony.htm "On a number of
occasions, I have unwisely become involved in email discussions with
Christians who at first seemed friendly and rational but who quickly revealed
themselves to be part of a movement I call Evangelists From Hell. These
Christians have the peculiar notion that insults, taunts, and accusations are
the most effective witnessing tools available and that the proper response to
Revelation 3:15: ("I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art
lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." KJV) is
to be as aggressively belligerent to non-believers as is humanly possible.
Over and over again, I have seen online Christians claim a sort of moral
superiority, only to behave in a way that is abusive and ugly."
<< Anyway, I was a somewhat lax Catholic (sidenote: supposedly one who leaves
the faith can never return. I guess this is evidence in favor of Catholicism
being a form of true Xtianity) until about my ninth grade year, when I
renounced for emotional reasons. I remained an agnostic until my junior year
in high school, when I became an adamant atheist. Except that Christian
apologists had very strong cases, so I stuck with atheist literature and
generally avoided apologetics. I heard apologetics in my head taunting me
about not being able to handle the truth and all, so I am cautiously reading
the works of Tekton and some other apologetics, to my increased dismay. >>
Well, I think it shows good freedom of thought that you read both sides. I
would try and read criticism though of both Christian and atheist literature
so that you don't get falsely sucked into whichever is wrong! I guess you know
this though - I hope I don't sound patronising.
<< So right now I am thinking about becoming a Kierkegaardan Christian >>
Like Don Cupitt? http://www.sofn.org.uk/purity.html
<< Thank you for your time. I have been browsing your page and you seem to
tackle the issues rather than avoid them like how some other atheists do. >>
Thanks for yours too. It must take some courage to write to me to tell me your
thinking of taking up Christianity. I wish you well in your quest and if that
means becoming a Christian, so be it. I think the main thing is that we all
remain reflective and nice to each other!
BTW I am writing a response to Jordan's latest. It will take some time though
as I want to follow up all the resources carefully and write a well-chiselled
piece that will be of interest, as well as trying to learn something myself!
Well, I'm at least glad to see that people are reading my resurrection
articles after all that hard work!
Best regards,
Steve
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Leaving Christianity: www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html