----- Original Message -----
Sent: 07 August 2000 22:54
Subject: Different categories? / Quotes from David
Pawson.
Dear Anthony,
I wrote:
<< but I guess you do not
find hell an insult so maybe it's water off a
duck's back.
>>
You replied:
<< I believe it's a fact. A fact cannot be
an insult or a compliment -
different categories. >>
I believe
the holocaust is a fact. I also believe it is an insult to Jews to
say that
they deserved their fate, just as it is a dreadful insult to any
human being
to say that hell is their just deserts. Why can you not see that
this is the
same category? Surely you know by now that what alarms me is your
sanctioning
of hell torture, biblical infanticide etc. You snipped the part
above where I
said "Afterall, you do believe in hell and I can't think of a
worse insult
than believing that people should justly be tortured." If I said
I believe
the holocaust happened and that the Jews deserved what they got,
would you be
alarmed at my statement, or think I believe a fact?
It is not that you
merely believe that hell is a "fact" that is so awful, but
that for
intelligent adults belief in such a "fact" brings with it the belief
that
this "fact" is a justified "fact."
I do not blame children who,
frightened by tales from their conditionally
loving Christian parents,
believe it when they are told that they and
others will go to hell unless
they are "saved." These poor kids believe
in hell too and I feel only anguish
for them. Some (many) go on to
endure much mental torture about what it takes
to be "truly saved," there
being so much conflict amongst Christians as to
what a "true Christian" is.
e.g. http://www.tiac.net/users/lusion/NowISee.html
Did
you know that David Pawson is not considered a "true Christian" by
some
Christians? In fact, maybe not saved at all (and therefore,
ironically,
going to hell).
From http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Articles_D/pawson.htm
<<
David Pawson is a false prophet. His scenario of the endtimes is nothing
like
the Biblical scenario, nor is his message honouring to the Lord Jesus
Christ.
The reader may dispute that statement, so shall we clarify this
by
summarising just a few of the errors and apostasies of Pawson ....
No,
David Pawson does not teach the eternal verities of the Lord, either
the
Bible is true or Pawson, and I know which I believe....Pawson is
worldly,
a worldly Christian (if he is really saved at all)....Here I would
say without
a shadow of a doubt that Pawson does not understand Salvation
in
Christ Jesus. In fact, his message is so like the Jehovah's
Witnesses
that it is remarkable. >>
You
wrote:
<< The exegete I find most faithful and who deals with many of
your
tough questions is David Pawson >>
After having read the
long transcripts of some of Pawson's
bizarre speeches at
http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Articles_D/pawson.htm
I
wonder if this a healthy mind in action. I encourage everyone to read
this
page and compare it with any article at random from the secular
web
http://www.infidels.org/
Here are
some quotes from David Pawson:
< ***********Begin Pawson
quotes************ >
"He is coming, it said, to make war and
the
first thing Jesus will do on his return is to kill thousands
of
people. This is a Jesus you don't hear about in Sunday School. This
is
not gentle Jesus meek and mild. This is Jesus coming with his
robe
dipped in blood and not his own blood. "
"Jesus will kill the lot
of them with his
secret weapon - the secret weapon is a two-edged
sword."
"And now that battlefield is deep in
corpses - there are
thousands and thousands of bodies lie and of
course it is the middle-east so
those bodies need to be cleaned
up quickly. Nobody could bury them all, so an
angel is calling to
the birds of the air to come and pick the bones.
"
" the angel calls to the birds of the air to come and pick the
bones
clean, come to the great supper of God and eat the flesh of
the Generals, and
the Kings and the great and small. It is quite
a gruesome vision. But that is
the first result of Christ's coming."
"...one day there will be a
Christian government over
the whole world. ...all the banks will be in
Christian hands...
and all the courts will be in Christian hands... Listen,
we
ought to be learning how to settle the differences in the
Church now,
because we are going to settle them for the world
later. Wonder if you
believe what I am telling you now?
...I am looking forward to us reigning on
earth with
Christ. And showing the world what it can be like when all
the
media is in Christian hands, when all the television is in
Christian
hands. There is nothing on your T.V. screen that Christ
could not look at.
It's coming - when He comes! ....
Jesus and His people will rule the nations
with a rod
of iron. That does not mean cruelty, it means no democracy.
No
debates, no political parties, no protest movements, no votes....
And
people will hate that. And since nothing will appear on
television Jesus
can't watch, people will say "Why can't we have
those `X' rated films back?"
And newspapers and magazines will be
fit for Jesus to read. "
"We are
not going to heaven to
live with God, He is coming to the New Earth to live
with us
forever. And of course, Christ, the Lamb of God will come too
for
the Spirit will be with us - HERE on a new planet earth.
That is most
amazing, because you see God the Father hasn't been
down to earth for a very
long time - His Son came down here, the
Spirit is now down here, but God the
Father was only here at the
very beginning, and Adam at the end of a hard
day's work heard
the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden of
Eden.
God was taking a stroll in the garden with Adam and Eve. But
then
when sin came in, the Holy Father could not stay. And
He
withdrew, yes, He sent His Son to die that we might become
holy,
sent His Holy Spirit to help us to be Holy and at the last, that
new city
of God into which nothing impure will enter will come down out
of
heaven. It is so big that it would just fit inside the moon, if the
moon
were hollow. 15 hundred square miles. I do architecture as
a
hobby..."
"He is coming to live with us and He will live on the
earth for ever
and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and
ever."
< ***********End Pawson quotes************ >
And so
he goes on. I really think you should read the "how to identify
a cult" sites
I gave earlier. What would it take to convince you that somebody
is
delusional?
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/cult.definition
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resource/srmind.htm
For
children and the ignorant and brainwashed I have sympathy, but with
people
like yourself I am appalled. Educated, intelligent adults in the 21st
century
believing that it is just to torture people for ever. Even Auschwitz
was not
that bad. You really cannot see that this is wrong and no good god
could exist
if this "fact" of hell was true?
Are you saying you wish
me to cease writing? I have thought so a couple of
times before but I have
been wrong, so I will wait for your definite word on
this or an end to your
replies.
I am sorry that after so much you are not able to have the time
to give me and
my readers the answer to why God killed David's baby which you
said can be
understood in context. I would have thought this was an important
thing for a
Christian to do and a small task if you really know the answer.
If you do not
know the answer, then why do you believe that your god is just
in the face of
his killing an innocent baby in order to punish its father?
You can wait until
your work slows down again, there is no time limit on
which you need to reply
by.
Maybe you won't tell me, but from our
exchanges you know some of what many
Christians have asked themselves, took
seriously, and found no Christian
answer to from any book or Christian. What
a shame if you really do know
and won't tell. What a travesty Christianity is
if the fact is that it just
can't face scrutiny and Christians do not
confront this. Ex-Christians report
much greater mental health and happiness
after deconversion and the dust
has settled, so you really have nothing to
fear if you are wrong. If
Christianity claims are true then they should stand
scrutiny. You did say that
you have the ability to
answer.
<< ...it seems you do not so much fail to understand
the bible as disagree
with it. I accept your freedom to do that.
>>
There is much in my analysis, as I have discussed already, that
shows that
Christianity is untenable, rather than merely that I "disagree
with it." I did
not "disagree with Christianity" when I was a Christian, my
researches led
me to the conclusion it is false. But on examination there is
much that is
disagreeable in the bible and now that it no longer has power
over
my mind I am indeed free to say that "the Emperor has no clothes!"
By
showing the bible is bad we can demonstrate that it is of fallible
cultural
man, not of a good god. With you I am interested in tackling the
cruel verses
since I am so appalled that you sanction them. With other
Christians I may
discuss Greek etymology
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/feedback/jim_moretz.html
or whether
the resurrection really happened
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jordan.html
etc. There are many
ways to show that Christianity is
untenable.
You wrote:
<< "Building the kingdom" is how I
should spend what time I explicitly allot
to Christian matters, and I doubt
that our dialogue is helping to do so. >>
Indeed, as I said, the
chance that you might be wrong about Christianity is
not admitted as a
possibility. Therefore our conversation is apparently
unimportant, despite
your previously claiming that if Christianity was
untrue then you "of course"
wish to know that. Did you really mean that?
Not only is our conversation
unimportant but you will feel untroubled at
the thought of those in hell
whilst you are in heaven (otherwise it wouldn't
be heaven for you). That is
how unimportant non-Christians are to some
Christians, and how little love
for others there really is.
<< for me, "in the image of God" is the
highest title - too many Christians
have forgotten that this applies equally
well to non-Christians in their
dealings with them >>
But it is
okay to have them tortured for ever?
Would you feel this conversation was
of a higher priority if it appeared you
were convincing me of Christian
claims? You said earlier << Why should I
be condemned to play away
fixtures only? Do the same principles not apply
to both sides in a dialogue?
>> Although it doesn't look like I am convincing
you of anything, it
does seem that we are demonstrating that your
Christian claims are easy for
me to tackle, despite your greater intelligence.
If you felt you were at
least winning arguments, would you feel different
about
priorities?
You explained previously that despite Luke 18:22 you were not
commanded to
give all your money away, merely that money was not to be
important to you.
Why then has your job acquired more importance than telling
me the
explanation about the cruel verses that you say you have the ability
to
explain? Even if I am not convinced, maybe some wavering
Christian
wandering through my site might be. Remember you can reply
when
you are ready, it doesn't need to interfere with your work.
These
conversations do not interfere with mine and I am busy too both
at
work and at home.
If you choose to answer straight away to points
other than why your god killed
king David's baby then you obviously do have
some time to spare and "it is
telling" (to use your phrase) that you are not
sparing time on this question
to which you said you had << not an
inability to reply. >> Do you really have
the ability to reply? Is
faith self-delusion?
What is most primordial for a Christian? Is it love
and truth, or is it
Christianity?
Tough questions, but I want to
deepen the conversation too.
Best
wishes,
Steve
----------------
Leaving Christianity: www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html
|