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----- Original Message -----
To: <Henry Quon>
Sent: 23 August 1999 23:49
Subject: Your comments in my guestbook
Hi Henry,
Thanks for your considered comments in my
guestbook on my "leaving
Christianity" website.
Feedback is always
appreciated, whether appreciative or
critical. In the spirit of hoping for an
interesting and profitable
exchange for both of us I'll make some comments on
what you wrote to me.
If we get an interesting exchange then I would like
to publish it on my
website (that should keep both of us
civil!)
<< I accepted Christ as my saviour in my late 20's, after
graduating from
the University of British Columbia as an anthropology major!
It may no
doubt seem surprising to you how an anthropology major can come to
accept
Christ, or even believe in God, for that matter. >>
Not
at all. There are intelligent and highly educated people in all
religions and
in what both of us would consider to be cults. As you
probably know, the
Moonies recruit largely on college campuses, and the
Japanese Aum Shinrikyo
cult contained many PhD's. When I was a
Christian I knew physicists (I am a
physicist myself), psychologists,
historians, doctors, dentists etc. in my
church. The thing I find lacking
in the education of Christians though is
familiarity with material
critical of their religion. I would be more
surprised if you could give
me a decent list of the material you have read
that is critical of
Christianity and explained convincingly what you thought
wrong with it.
I would be very impressed indeed if you used to be a member of
a
freethought organisation, wrote material critical of Christianity
and
later became a Christian. Are you impressed with the fact that so
many
ministers, missionaries and apologists leave Christianity?
<<
Steve, I do sometimes find it hard to reconncile what I see going on in
this
world, the evil, the unfair circumstances in life, the injustices,
the
suffering which befalls both "saints" and "sinners" alike, etc.
>>
I have not consciously argued for atheism on my site but I am
critical of
Christianity which I think can be demonstrated to be false as is
discussed
by so many ex-professional churchmen whose deconversion stories
can
be found via my site. I am not arguing it myself particularly anyway,
as
it is already well covered on the Internet. Rather I am mostly
just
presenting case histories with a little of what I personally
found.
I have mostly geared my site to be a resource for those in a
similar
situation to me rather than primarily presenting the information of
what
is wrong with Christianity (although that information is available in
some
of the links). As such maybe the emotional part of my story has
made
more of an impact on you than the intellectual part?
I only outline
what I read and you will need to follow the links/books to
get a flavour of
it. So I think your remarks, although obviously well
intended, might be
misplaced, but I hope I'll make it clear what I mean in
a while. Sure enough
the "problem of evil" has been a perennial problem
(and still is) within
Christianity, and although a question I pondered it
was not the main reason I
left Christianity. Basically I left because in
the course of my reading and
thinking it became overwhelmingly apparent
that Christianity is a man made
cultural thing and not of God. I have
provided enough notes and links in my
website to follow up on the kind of
material that convinced me of this. My
comments about hell etc. where
"the last straw" and I am sure I would have
deconverted even without
thinking about the problem of evil and the doctrine
of hell. It is more
something I have thought about after leaving than what
was usually on my
mind when I was a Christian. When I was a Christian I was
very liberal and
didn't actually (consciously) believe in the existence of
hell as it
didn't make sense within my picture of a loving God. In fact it
disturbed
me very much to find that some people at my church did believe in
hell
"how could they!" I thought. However the fact that God seemed to
allow
the doctrine to be so popular within the church did bother me very
much,
as did the fact that if Jesus & St. Paul etc. really didn't believe
in
literal hell then the fact that they didn't make it abundantly
transparent
that they meant something else is just utterly culpable
irresponsibility
to me, so abhorrent is the merest sniff of that doctrine and
so dreadful
the consequences of Christians believing it down the
ages.
<< However, I do find comfort in reading God's word and it
gives me
assurance in two ways: (1)No matter what happens to me in this
world,
God will ultimately ensure that those who do trust in him will
be
vindicated in their faith >>
I have a big problem with this
in that it strikes me as a very unhealthy
relationship with ones god. If you
read further in my site you will see I
have included comments about the
similarity of this with an abused wife's
love for her husband and the
Stockholm syndrome starting at
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html#example
In
fact you should probably read the whole of
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html
as there are other
relevant comments on this "trust God no matter what"
subject.
As for comfort in reading God's word, how do you feel about
this
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/babble.html
Another
excellent resource is here
http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/absolutemorals.htm#aview
<<
and (2)Mortal man does not have all the answers to life and
should not be
expected to. If man had all the answers to life, there would
be no need for
faith and consequently little need to believe in God. >>
I am quite
happy with mystery, it is a chance for adventure and discovery.
As a
Christian and as an ex-Christian I have never been of the opinion
that I
would ever know everything. I take it that you see problems with
Islam? If
you had all the answers to these problems then there would be no
need for
faith in the prophet Mohammed and consequently little need to
believe in
Allah (and so on for every other religion and belief).
<< Your
point about the eternal damnation of sinners in hellfire is a
point very well
taken. I absolutely concur with you in this respect- If
God were to condemn
the "unjust" for all eternity in hellfire, he would
make the SS guards at
Auschwitz, Treblinka, Buchenwald and the
Slobodan Miloslevics of this world
seem like Mother Theresa in
comparison. >>
You might be
interested in these articles about "saintly" Mother Teresa
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/links.html#TERESA
Indeed,
I agree - if God let anyone (even Hitler) go to hell than I would
think him a
true devil. Torture is not justified for anything, let alone
never-ending
torture.
<< Thankfully, God IS NOT like this and I will tell you
why. This is also
where traditional christianity, both catholic and
protestant, have gone
on the wrong tangent. In the early new testament
christian church, there
was no such teaching of eternal hellfire.
>>
My researches have also led me to this conclusion and I know
other
atheists who also think Jesus didn't mean hellfire as commonly
believed.
As I said above, I still hold the originators of Christianity as
culpable
(and God if he existed) for not wiping the last trace of hellfire
belief
off the planet. Whether Jesus really meant medieval hellfire
or
something else is not an issue with me. I have not made this clear
in
my story and will set about rewriting or providing a note to that
section
soon! You may have noticed the sentence "The fact that Jesus,
as
depicted in the gospels, believed in hell is to me such a
serious
religious problem that it was one of the things that finally broke
up
my Christianity." The "as depicted in the gospels" bit is the clue
to
the fact that I didn't think that modern or medieval Christianity
was
invented by Jesus (most of Christianity seems to have been invented
by
St. Paul). You may also notice that my stomach churned at the
thought that
all was not well in the moral character of Christ. Nobody
of divine knowledge
should speak of hell without being very careful
considering how people might
take this!
<< Yes, Jesus did mention hellfire but what he
meant
was far different from what has been taught, and is still being
taught, in
christain churches- particularly the ultra fundamentalist
ones.
>>
Even when a Christian I thought the fundies were
dangerous and probably
crazy! Of course they will tell you that you are not a
"real" Christian
and neither was I.
<< Jesus and the new
testament church taught that those who are
unrepentant (ie. unwilling to lead
just and righteous lives)will be
annihilated in "gehenna" fire. The wicked
will be burned up- not
roasting endlessly for all eternity. Once burned up,
they will have
no more consciousness and it will be as if they had never
existed. >>
Doesn't strike me as particularly nice either. I think
given the resources
of divinity and eternity that re-education and
rehabilitation of the
"unrepentant" (not to mention a readjustment of
seratonin levels and
the dodgy genes that influence behaviour) would be
better behaviour.
Meanwhile the bible is very poor at being good at
explaining what hell
"really" is: Revelation 20:10, "And the devil that
deceived them was cast
into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast
and the false prophet
had been thrown. They shall be tormented day and night
for ever and ever."
<< This is how a merciful God deals
with
those who are truly wicked and evil. >>
Rather that is what you are
told by your version of Christianity. Also it
seems that Christians have too
easy a time of disposing of the "truly
evil and wicked."
<< As
an intelligent, rational person, permit me to ask you this question-
If all
people supposedly receive their "reward" when they die, either
heaven or
hell, then why is there a need for a resurrection of the
dead?
>>
It's a bit of an odd question, as I don't believe in
any of it.
<< Plainly, the bible speaks of the resurrection to
eternal life when
those who are dead in Christ will be resurrected at his
glorious second
coming (Rev.20:4). However, the bible speaks of a second
resurrection
(Rev.20:5) one thousand years later when those who have
stubbornly
refused to accept the light of the gospel will be resurrected to
judgment.
>>
Who is "stubbornly refusing to accept the light of
gospel?" If you read
http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/slocks.htm
you will see that from my
researches the most common reason for people to
leave Christianity is
through research into it leading them to the painful
conclusion that it is
false. I have also recently put up the following
page
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/conversion_asymmetry.html
which
is relevant here as is http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html
Don't
miss this shocker too
http://www.infidels.org/secular_web/feature/1999/edelen03.html
There
is something else for you to consider. From my experience of those
deconverts
I've talked to on the net, they have all been surprised at a
much richer life
once they have left Christianity, apart from the problems
that being an
infidel amongst believers subsequently brings. Most of us
had a rich
Christian experience that we believed to be a good, loving
thing at the time.
It comes as pretty much a shock to most of us to make
the kind of discoveries
that make Christianity untenable for us any
longer. Nevertheless, almost all
ex-Christians describe the enriching
experience that leaving Christianity
brings. There are some quotes at
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/quotes.html
as well as more
material throughout my site and via the links. How can we be
missing
something if we find it better after leaving Christianity?
I
only know of one person who had a very bad inner-personal time
after
deconversion [1].
He was training to be a professional apologist and (in
his
own words)
<Begin Quote>
I had a rather abrupt
intellectual crisis my last year of college. I was
planning to be a
professional apologist and was taking three courses my
fall quarter relating
to biblical studies. I thought the best way to
defeat the Jesus Seminar and
the source critics of the Pentateuch was to
know their arguments as well as
they did. Ironically, I was won over to
the historical-critical method. Given
my background in comparative
religions and my training as an apologist who
liked to ask difficult
questions, my view of the Bible and the religious
communities that
produced it quickly changed. More and more, I saw the Bible
as a mere
cultural production, a far cry from being the very breathed-out
word of
God To say the least, it was the most traumatic experience of my
life.
The worldview that I had spent a decade meticulously constructing
was
shattered forever. I felt as if I was going insane. [....] I'm still
very
much haunted by the ghost of my indoctrination and I don't think
that
it's leaving anytime soon. I have so much to deal with and have
just
barely gotten the confidence to go back out into the public and
start
looking for a job. I daily fear helplessly falling into a state
of
insanity. It's amazing how a deconversion experience can so affect
the
self-confidence of a once "all-knowing" apologist.
<End Quote>
(The Jesus seminar is here
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/seminar.html
)
So it can be traumatic, but he was rather the exception
from those
deconverts I've talked to. Most found it liberating, whereas
Matt (I talked
to him on a mailing list and by private email) went on to
complain about how
profoundly he doubted his own intellectual
abilities for having been so
seriously duped for so long. It is this that
really depressed him and sent
him searching for various councillors,
sympathetic correspondents etc. Indeed
it makes a very moot
point that anyone does find deconversion painful given
the assumption
that Christianity is about "love." I think if love was primal
then
deconversion should be a lot less painful because if Christianity
is
false then it is patent that we were having loving feelings without
any god
helping us, and so there should be no trouble caused by
deconversion - it
should be a liberation to be attuned to the real world,
increasing our
chances of doing real good if we react to the world as
it is rather than a
false model. This liberation is the norm in the vast
majority of cases I have
collected and in all cases on long term follow
up. However, I think some
Christians are more in love with
Christianity than love and because of this
they are very alarmed at the
idea that Christianity might be false. Really
nobody should be afraid of
research. An example of an unafraid Christian,
demonstrating the ease
of deconversion in those who primarily value love is
the following:
<Begin Quote - from the ex-Christian archives>
On
the other hand, my friend's grandmother had been a Christian for over
65
years, and we converted her IN ONE EVENING. A record to be sure,
but it
was so easy because she valued her own judgement over the
comforts of the
Christian religion. With her, it all started when Troy
(my friend, her
grandson) mentioned something about God ordering
the death of babies. She
said "there ain't no such thing like that in the
bible." We showed her,
and she was shocked. To her, morality is
more important than faith, and
after 65 years of Christianity, she
said "Why I had no idea, I can't believe
I have been worshipping this
sh*t all my life." [....] The quote was 1 Samuel
15:2-3
<End Quote>
Even within the Christian tradition there is
the example of St. Theresa
of Lisieux who pretty much became an atheist as
she was dying and claimed
a far purer love when "hope of heaven" etc. was
gone. Some Christian
mystics described this as "God finally being born in
her." Away the
trappings of dogma! St. Thomas Aquinas also described his
Summa
Theologica "as straw" after a religious experience. So if
somebody's
Christianity is really about love then that Christian should
welcome free
enquiry. If it is about ego and holding onto dogmas and certain
social
circles then they will get upset. There you go - falsifiable
theories!
<< The point is Steve, the traditionally accepted concept
of Hellfire is
basically WRONG and it does a tremendous disservice to
GOD's
character. It is small wonder that intelligent and thoughtful
individuals
like yourself would have little recourse other than to turn your
back on
God. >>
If you read my story again you will see that
what really shook me up
was discovery of the similarity of Christian
experiences within other
religions and non-religious thought, the spiritual
superiority (to me) of
a non-religious worldview and my discoveries when
reading about the
history and psychology of Christianity. If Christianity did
not have a
hell-belief in any of its history or branches then I would still
believe
Christianity to be false.
<< Steve, I felt I
have
gone on long enough. I do hope that you might reconsider your
feelings
towards God based on what I have said. >>
I hope this
is of interest. If you wish to dialogue then I am willing, and
if not then I
won't take offence.
<< God is truly a loving God, even
though we
may not always understand why he does things the way he does.
>>
"My husband is truly loving even though I don't know why he hits
me or
allows me to get hurt."
<< I know that one day, hopefully
soon, his son Jesus Christ is returning
to this world to reclaim this world
for those who are truly still faithful
to him, even in these trying and
perplexing times. >>
How do you know this? In your reply remember
that people from other
religions also claim to "know" things that disagree
with Christian claims.
<< Yours faithfully in HIM,
>>
It is odd to sign correspondence like this to somebody who you
know
doesn't believe in Christianity. Nevertheless, I hope we can have
a
productive correspondence and I will be interested in your opinion of
the
URLs I gave and my
responses.
Steve
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