From: Justin Hughes To: Steve LocksSent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 10:32 AMSubject: HelloIndeed, that was sneaky! It took me a couple of minutes to find the link!In one way I am pleased that you are doing what you are, and in another I am sad.Let me introduce myself first; I am a preacher/pastor, and I suppose you would label me a 'fundamentalist'. I live in Somerset, and I think you are in the UK, so you would know where that is.One of the curses of the modern day is nominal Christianity, and you are doing things which I hope will remove them from the scene. For this I am grateful, in a mild form. About 80 - 85% of regular churchgoing 'Christians' are no such thing. They have never met, and do not know the Lord Jesus Christ. If you ask them if they have ever heard Him speak to them they look at you as if you are some sort of crank. All the merely religious folks, whether or not they hold 'fundamentalist' beliefs, have never heard 'That Voice', and have no relationship with God, as they do not know Him. Sadly, that is what Jesus gave His life for on the Cross, that men, those He chose and called, could know Him.Much of evangelism today is concentrated on 'getting people in'. They are wholly ignorant of what God means by evangelism, and what true conversion is, by and large, and equate people being in church with people being in Christ. Then, by some of the methods you rightly point out on your site, they manipulate people into holding beliefs which are held by 'their church'. Those beliefs are taught and insisted upon, and dearly and sincerely held, as you point out. They are, however, not part of them; those who hold the beliefs.Then there are the real Christians, whom I would put at around 1% of the British people, who have come to real repentance, and have heard the Lord Jesus speak to them. They have been born again of the Spirit, not just notionally so as in so many circles, as you point out, but actually, really, and experientially. They are so changed that their friends are shocked by the difference in them, and they hardly know themselves. By contrast, the ones previously mentioned, the nominals, have gone through the motions taught them by 'pastor', and have been baptised in water too usually, and are told, "You are now born again of the Holy Spirit." There is no change in their lives, they do not know God, and have never heard Him speak to them. All they have is religion about Him, often dearly and sincerely held. But they are still cut off from God by sin, which they are unable to control, and which rules them.Those are the two camps, and it appears to me that you are drawing off the nominals. In that I would say you are a tool of God, you are being used of Him to sort the sheep from the goats. And I would say that that is a very useful function as far as we are concerned.The only reserve I would have is that there are the new, genuinely born again, real Christians, whose new and vulnerable faith and knowledge of God you may stumble, or overthrow, causing them to join you again on the road of independence from God, and death. I would be very unhappy indeed if you did that.All human beings instinctively know that there is a God, and they all fear death. They may be quite good at covering up that fear, or putting it out of their mind, particularly when they are young. However, no one gets off this planet alive, (unless they are caught up by God of course). Almighty God has said that,"It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgement." You are gambling that He is a liar, or that He does not exist. Like all unbelievers, you will be instantly converted immediately after your death. No one who dies is an unbeliever, and if your dead friends and relatives could get back and knock some sense into you by whatever means they could they would do so. But God has ordained that it is all by faith. That is not the sort of faith which man can work up of himself, which results is the ubiquitous nominalism we see everywhere, but that which God authors Himself in someone's heart by the Word of God, spoken by Him into that heart.In one sense I wish you success, in removing the nominals. I would much rather you were genuinely saved and came into a personal knowledge of Him. He is so wonderful I could not begin to describe it. And He is deeply offended by your calling Him a liar. He will deal with you on this matter and others when you meet Him; an even from which there is no escape.Yours, Justin Hughes.
<< One of the curses of the modern day is nominal Christianity, and you are doing things which I hope will remove them from the scene. For this I am grateful, in a mild form. About 80 - 85% of regular churchgoing 'Christians' are no such thing. They have never met, and do not know the Lord Jesus Christ. If you ask them if they have ever heard Him speak to them they look at you as if you are some sort of crank. >>Jesus prayed that all his followers would be as one, but the power of prayer is unimpressive, even for Jesus, as I continually see that Christians call most other Christians "false" in a circle of complete mutual condemnation.You all condemn each other as "false Christians" and there is no agreement on what Christianity actually is! Jesus prayer is thwarted and the "clear message" that Christians claim they are preaching is a confused mess! Christians are no different in this regard to other religions which also split into factions accusing all the other sects that they are false, ones own sect being the only one who has the correct interpretation. Sunni vs. Shi'ite Muslims etc.<< All the merely religious folks, whether or not they hold 'fundamentalist' beliefs, have never heard 'That Voice', and have no relationship with God, as they do not know Him. >>I have plenty of deconversion stories from previous Christians, who, like you, were utterly convinced they had a vibrant relationship with the living Christ. Likewise, if you read Steve Hassan's book (see my site) you will see that he felt deeply loved and in a vibrant relationship with the Reverend Moon.<< Sadly, that is what Jesus gave His life for on the Cross, that men, those He chose and called, could know Him. >>So has Jesus' sacrifice been largely a failure in your view?
<< Then there are the real Christians, whom I would put at around 1% of the British people >>Where did you get that statistic from? The Archbishop of Canterbury likewise said that he thought Christianity would be a dead religion in the UK within a generation.<<, who have come to real repentance, and have heard the Lord Jesus speak to them. They have been born again of the Spirit, not just notionally so as in so many circles, as you point out, but actually, really, and experientially. They are so changed that their friends are shocked by the difference in them, and they hardly know themselves. By contrast, the ones previously mentioned, the nominals, have gone through the motions taught them by 'pastor', and have been baptised in water too usually, and are told, "You are now born again of the Holy Spirit." There is no change in their lives, they do not know God, and have never heard Him speak to them. All they have is religion about Him, often dearly and sincerely held. But they are still cut off from God by sin, which they are unable to control, and which rules them. >>You should visitThere are plenty of people who were previously as convinced as yourself who later concluded they were quite wrong. You can find them on the Leaving Born Again Fundamentalist Christianity E-Mail List and the List of Leaving Born Again Fundamentalist Christianity Webring sites for instance.You will find plenty of people there who once would have agreed with you.
<< Those are the two camps, and it appears to me that you are drawing off the nominals. In that I would say you are a tool of God, you are being used of Him to sort the sheep from the goats. And I would say that that is a very useful function as far as we are concerned.
The only reserve I would have is that there are the new, genuinely born again, real Christians, whose new and vulnerable faith and knowledge of God you may stumble, or overthrow, causing them to join you again on the road of independence from God, and death. I would be very unhappy indeed if you did that. >>I am unaware of having deconverted any Christians. Instead I know that I have helped plenty who had already left Christianity and were looking for "exit counselling." See http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/feedback/ashley_coogan.html
<< All human beings instinctively know that there is a God, and they all fear death. >>If you really know there is a god and you are going to heaven then why do you fear death? (You said "all" humans fear death.)As for "All human beings instinctively know that there is a God" consider this:Louis XIV's envoy to "Siam", de la
Loubre, reported the inhabitants as having no belief in a god or in the
immortality of the soul, although some added that they did have a god once
but he had since disappeared, but they didn't know where! However for many
people it's not so much that God (which god?) does indeed go away but that
he doesn't even turn up in the first place.
Although it does appear that numinous/oceanic etc. experiences happen
to a range of people (and certainly not just religious types, let alone
just Christians!) it is also the case that such things are far more
culturally conditioned than might be obvious. In The Philosophers
Magazine, Issue 10, Spring 2000, Anthony Flew made the following
observation:
*******Begin quote********
In considering the search for evidence of the existence of God it is as
difficult as it is necessary for those of us who have been raised in
theist or post-theist societies to free ourselves from the prejudices of
such upbringings. I confess that I myself really began to do this only in
consequence of visiting the institute of Foreign Philosophy in Peking
University, Beijing.
There I was able to enjoy much philosophical talk with my graduate student
'minder'. He was of course acquainted with the concept of the theist God.
But he had met it only as today any of us might happen to come upon the
notions of Aphrodite or Poseidon. He had never had any occasion to
confront it as what William James called a 'live option' - any more than,
for any of our contemporaries anywhere, belief in the real existence of
the Olympians constitutes such an option.
So he did not know whether to be more amused or more indignant when he
first learnt from Descartes that our Maker has imprinted upon every human
soul - as his trademark, as it were - the (authentic) idea of God, a
concept that supposedly is too splendid to have been shaped by merely
human agency, and from which it is allegedly possible immediately to infer
the existence of the corresponding object God. For were not his
compatriots also supposed to be God's creatures; and, if so, how had God
failed to imprint his trademark upon their souls?
******End quote********<< They may be quite good at covering up that fear, or putting it out of their mind, particularly when they are young. >>I'm afraid that's wishful thinking.<< However, no one gets off this planet alive, (unless they are caught up by God of course). Almighty God has said that,"It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgement." You are gambling that He is a liar, or that He does not exist. >>Pascal's wager!Likewise, you are gambling that Islam is not true:"Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The
Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my
Lord* and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has
forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no
helpers. Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is a third of a trinity.
There is no god except the one god. Unless they refrain from saying this,
those who disbelieve among them will incur a painful retribution.
[Koran 005:072-73]I hope you won't find it unjust when after death you find yourself and all
those you helped to Christ are roasting in Allah's hell. He made you and
can do what he wants with you, so don't complain! Also do not presume that
you can judge Allah, the Koran explains that you must submit to his will.
Like Christians, those of other religions can quote their holy books to
prove their beliefs are true. Christians did not invent special pleading
although they have made it into an art form!To paraphrase you further:You are gambling that He (Krishna) is a liar, or that He (Krishna) does not exist:-"He who in this oneness of love, loves me in whatever he sees, wherever
this man may live, in truth this man lives in me...I am from everlasting
the seed of eternal life...in its delusion the world knows me not...all
beings have their rest in me...I am the way...he who loves me shall not
perish...only by love can men see me, and know me, and come unto
me...malignant men hate me...they come not to me, but they go down the
path of hell." Krishna - the Bhagavad Gita (c. 500 B.C.)Is it therefore a terrible thing that Christians work to prevent people from
coming to Krishna?Krishna made us, so by failing to come to him, you and I will rightfully
and justly be tortured forever.Worse still you are gambling your whole life on what I think is a mistaken view of the world1 Cor 15:19 "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of men the most miserable."As ex-Christians so frequently find, life after Christianity is far richer and more interesting, even spiritually so, no matter how real and vibrant they previously thought their "relationship with Jesus" was before.I have many stories from ex-Christians who previously were convinced that they had a "vibrant and deep relationship with the living Christ." Likewise Moonies believe they have a deep relationship with the Reverend Moon. The power of a love feeling is no guarantee that you are loved back let alone that the beloved even exists, otherwise you will have to admit that Hare Krishna exists as there are plenty of his devoted followers in a loving relationship with him too. It is a manufactured relationship. No one ever heard of "having a personal relationship with Christ" and "inviting him into your heart" until the German Pietist movement of the Eighteenth Century. See if you can find those phrases taken to be so central for Christians these days in earlier writings then the 18th Century.<< Like all unbelievers, you will be instantly converted immediately after your death. >>I can equally assert that you will be instantly converted to Islam after your death.<< No one who dies is an unbeliever, and if your dead friends and relatives could get back and knock some sense into you by whatever means they could they would do so. >>and yours could "knock some sense into you" that Islam is the one true religion.<< But God has ordained that it is all by faith. >>If "all" is by faith, how can my arguments or yours make any difference? How can I be persuading anyone? See my discussions on Apologetics and Christianity may be of interest on this mater of faith (i.e. "fideism") or apologetics (arguments) - i.e. see (history so far... )
- Mark McFall (from "In the Word Ministries") wrote The Need for Quality Apologetics and asked for my comments.
- I wrote my Commentry on The Need for Quality Apologetics
- Mark responded with A Discussion With Steve Locks On Apologetics And Christianity
- I wrote a response at http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/feedback/mcfall/2.html
The obvious problem is why *Christian* faith? As soon as a believer gives a reason then one is back to apologetics. Indeed, unless one merely continues as a Christian unthinkingly from a childhood upbringing then something must have convinced you to remain, or become, a Christian. Even if this was a religious experience you will have believed this to be veridical enough to have faith in, rather than it being some idle thought. Moreover you will have to claim that your religious experience is veridical whereas a Buddhist or Daoist's (or even an atheist's) religious and spiritual experience is not. Yet again fideism intrinsically contains apologetics if it is to be anything other than purely arbitrary. So I do not believe fideism is an honest statement of anyone's approach to Christianity.I do not find that "faith" is responsible or virtuous. More honest - and powerful for finding things out - are working hypotheses about life, always open to refutation. I find a strong bedrock of religious faith is dangerous and stultifies examination of one's beliefs and experiences. The men who flew into the WTC and the suicide victims of the heaven's gate cult all had faith in abundance. The dishonesty of faith was made explicit by William Craig when he wrote: "Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter, not vice versa." [Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics, 1994].Honest belief is something that happens to a person based largely on the knowledge and understanding they have and how they perceive the world. If that is the kind of faith a Christian has then that's fair enough in my opinion. However, the very notion of needing apologetics makes me suspicious. Why apologetics rather than open research? It looks like an attempt to buttress a belief system rather than honest examination - a desire for dogma greater than a desire for truth. I also guess that there is some fear at work, maybe based on the common false idea that life without Christianity (or without religion at all) is likely to be empty and nihilistic. The great surprise for those of us who loose faith is that once the shock is over our lives do not become spiritually empty. Ex-Christians frequently describe an enormous life affirming nature to the discovery that their beliefs were false, even if the initial discovery was traumatic. Reports from deconverts are of a life of honesty, free, and more loving, and often a passion for knowledge and interest in the world. No divine judgementalness, spiritual separation from others or easy condemnation of different lifestyles. Instead the discovery of the poignancy and vulnerability of life. The desire to be moral because we can truly empathise with others in their messy humanity. Connection with the world rather than running against it.I would be surprised if a new apologetic angle comes along, given the quality and range of ex-Christians out there, and the asymmetry of their counterparts given the lack of well-read critics of Christianity who subsequently become Christians. As you know, the frequently touted ex-atheist Josh McDowell is not up to the mark! If the evidence for Christianity is so good then priests, missionaries and hosts of well-churched Christians would not be deconverting. Apologist Matt Bell writes: "the Christian religion is ultimately a matter of having faith and not empirical evidence strong enough to convince the sceptical unbeliever." The lesson to learn from ex-Christians is that the "empirical evidence" is also not enough to keep many Christians in their faith. It was not through lack of apologetics that we lost faith - but the paucity of the reasons for remaining Christian in the face of the problems with Christian belief.Also, if evidence was important for convincing ex and non-Christians then a God could obviously convince them very easily. However, in response to confirmation candidates asking "why faith not evidence?" the theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer said "to ask for faith in the way that many people do is to ask for a prouder God than He who became our brother in the cradle and on the cross." As such I think pounding ancient history, desperately trying to find flaws in evolution and all the other behaviour of demanding evangelists are way off even the religious mark. I fail to see how Christians can be doing "God's work" by taking up the task of trying to convince us when the Christian God himself (or Allah, Krishna etc.) does not seem too concerned about doing this. Frequently we poor atheists watch in bewilderment as some Christians strenuously try to shore their God up, like abused wives making excuses for their negligent (e.g. the holocaust) and violent (e.g. hell) husbands, all the time convincing themselves that it is they, who are at fault in the relationship - unworthy sinners, estranged from God, deserving of unrelenting torture unless they accept the "damnable syllogism" of the atonement http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jordan.html#phil.<< That is not the sort of faith which man can work up of himself, which results is the ubiquitous nominalism we see everywhere, but that which God authors Himself in someone's heart by the Word of God, spoken by Him into that heart. >>Then why preach if God is the author who speaks to the heart? Are you arrogantly claiming you can open hearts that God cannot open himself?
<< In one sense I wish you success, in removing the nominals. I would much rather you were genuinely saved and came into a personal knowledge of Him. He is so wonderful I could not begin to describe it. >>That's what Steve Hassan thought about the Reverend Moon.Why have you judged other Christians as "nominals." Do you believe Jesus was wrong to say "judge not lest you be judged"? How do you "know" you are a real Christian and have not been sent by God to me so that I can "remove" *you* from the true flock? All other Christians are equally convinced that it is they who are the "true" Christians and it is the other "so-called" Christians who are not like them who have got it wrong.<< And He is deeply offended by your calling Him a liar. >>Then tell me how Crazy stuff from the bible can be harmonised. If not then, as Thomas Paine pointed out, it is actually those who hold the bible as the "word of God" who are calling God a liar, as clearly contradictory statements cannot be from a real god. Paine was a deist, but held that the bible is a travesty of the God he believed in.So the irony is that it is inerrantists who make the Christian God out to be a liar. e.g. they believe both that Jesus told us to forgive those who trespass against us and "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee ... tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican." [Matt. xviii, 15-17.]Inerrantists also believe the following contradictory statements:"For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." (Jeremiah 3:12)
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." (Jeremiah 17:4)
"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." (John 5:31)
"Jesus answered: Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid." (John 8:14)"And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)
"the whole world is under control of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)And Jesus said, "For judgment I am come into this world." (John 9:39)
"I came not to judge the world" (John 12:47)"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16)
"Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)
I however do not believe that a real god can make contradictory statements, and so I do not believe that the bible is an inerrant work of a god. Likewise I do not find that my historical researches point to the Jesus of history being the Jesus of faith (see http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jordan.html). This does not mean I think Jesus is a "liar" rather I disagree that Jesus is who you think he is (was). Do you think Zeus is a liar or not the god the ancients thought he was?
<< He will deal with you on this matter and others when you meet Him; an even from which there is no escape. >>Christian threats - it doesn't take long to see that yours is not a religion of love. Your god will hurt me, and I like an abused wife should believe that I deserve it."Love me or I'll hurt you."That is the most disturbing aspect for me about Christianity - its
similarity to an abusive relationship. Some apologists expend enormous
amounts of energy attempting to convince others (and themselves) that the
God of their bible who orders baby massacre (1 Samuel 15:2-3) and
pronounces on damnation (Mark 16:16) is a divine, loving and just being.
"My husband hits me because I deserve it, he only does it because he loves
me and my behaviour is so poor. He does so much for me - I owe him
everything and would be nothing without his care." He is perceived as
having complete power whilst demonstrating both kindness and cruelty. But
it can't *really* be cruel - where would I go! We must deserve it. And so
God stood by during the holocaust because of a "higher purpose." It just
has to be so! When Mother Julian of Norwich had her "Revelations of Divine
Love", she asked during her 13th revelation why the origin of sin had not
been prevented (she remarks that she senselessly and stupidly fretted and
upset herself over it!) In her "revelation" Jesus says "sin is necessary,
but all will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of things will
be well". This sort of non-answer is quite like the "we shall see that it
is right that people get tortured for ever when we have God's perspective"
answer that Christians have given me about hell justification. i.e. it is
dishonest and claims you understand something horrific that you really
don't understand. Even Julian of Norwich had Jesus say it 3 times to her,
as if it wouldn't be convincing just once from a deity - I suspect she
felt dissatisfied with this answer herself. Indeed she asks a similar
question shortly after and receives the same answer another 3 times. No
real explanation for His creatures in mental anguish from the Christian
god.
What exactly can a Christian know that the god they believe in has done to
deserve their love when the evidence from the bible, human atrocities and
terrible natural disasters of the world speak so loudly against a
benevolent deity? Just what should an abusive husband do to his wife
before she stops loving him, and what worldly negligence or biblical
cruelty would the Christian God have to commit before it became obvious
that Christianity is a set of confused beliefs constructed by humans and
built on a foundation of a very primitive war like god?As for us "knowing that God is there" - doesn't this make a nonsense of Jesus' purported sacrifice? Imagine - that Jesus knew his divine status and that he was going to "sit at the right hand of the Father," as it says in the NT. If he knew his divine status that would have been a great strength to him in misfortune, just as Bill Gates' millions would be a strength to him if he lost a dollar. Do you believe Jesus did *not* know he was the son of God and was going to sit at the right hand of the Father after his crucifixion? Do you believe that Jesus might have thought earthly kingdoms are worth more than heavenly ones? If he valued the heavenly kingdom greater, then how could he have been "tempted" by the devil? So how exactly could any offer to Jesus have been a "temptation?" Why would a deity be tempted to give up all of eternity and the most exalted state of all for worldly kingdoms/bread etc? Didn't your god make the world anyway? Would Bill Gates be tempted to give up Microsoft by someone offering a CD containing a copy of windows 3.1?How is a death, no matter how unpleasant (could have been worse than crucifixion - how about being hung, drawn and quartered, how about being in hell for all eternity) have been a big deal if Jesus knew he was God? Hadn't he just said that he is going to be in paradise ("that day") to one of the other crucified men? Do you think Jesus would have been in doubt of his divine status or his exalted state in heaven awaiting him? Did Jesus not know that he was going to be sitting at the right hand of the Father?Was this death not the purpose of his coming and his saving death exactly what the whole of creation needed? How could he possibly have felt unwanted or unpurposeful, knowing the incredible importance of his death? Isn't a rejection and death exactly what he wanted? Everything was going according to plan. Jesus had been followed by disciples and was soon to be worshipped by hundreds of millions and to be the king of heaven. Do you not think that would have counteracted a few hours rejection - and rejection that was part of his divine plan at that!Tell me how Jesus could possibly have been tempted by the devil given that Jesus is equal with God who created everything and was also the king of heaven, and how any earthly suffering could have meant more than a parking fine to Bill Gates given that Jesus knew his divine status, past heavenly eternity and future eternal glory?How could God be tempted? How could God be a man with the consciousness that he was divine and perfect? That is an infinite source of strength that mere humans do not have. How could Christ have felt abandoned when he knew he was to be resurrected in 3 days time, go to the right hand of the Father, be worshipped by hundreds of millions and return in glory? How does that compare to the suffering of children at the hands of abusive parents, those who were slain by Moses' warriors under divine instructions and the children who your god held the coming of Herod's troops from? And so on.BTW, why did you write to me?You will have to read the links I give if you want to convince me of anything as otherwise you will not be addressing the responses I have already made to your points.I'd be happy to debate you if you wish, but you might be advised to read my other feedback first to see what is likely to happen.Best wishes,
From: Justin Hughes To: Steve LocksSent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 9:03 AMSubject: Re: HelloSteve Locks,Thank yor for your very long response to mine about your site. I would agree with much of what you say, but not for the same reasons.I could not really engage in debate with you as that is not how God works. There are many who think, as you appear to do that 'Christianity' is an intellectually assembled religion, it isn't. There are umpteen people who are in 'Christianity' who do have such, but we do not. Christians know the Lord Jesus Himself, they do not just have an intellectual held set of beliefs and values, like the nominal Christians.You are right of course in what you say about so many people who accuse others of being 'false Christians'. But you must not assume that all that calls itself 'Christian' is Christian. There are many reasons why this happens, the accusers are only babes in Christ, or have only intellectual religion, or have fallen, etc., but you must not blasphemously claim that the prayer of the Lord Jesus was not answered. I know people who are in all sorts of churches who are genuinely the Lord's, but stay in such things like the C of E. Don't ask me how or why they do it, but they do. The issue is nothing to do with what doctrine someone holds, in the first place, but whether they are filled with the Holy Spirit or not. There is instant fellowship between all who are geuinely saved no matter what church they attend. There is no fellowship possible between those who are saved and those who are not. Jesus' prayer was answered, and is effectual.Your problem lies in that you are confusing nominal Christians with the genuine. The nominals outnumber the 'reals' by probably 12:1. By nominal I mean regular churchgoing professing Christian.As I said, you may have some effect on churches but you will not have any effect on The Church, they are with Christ, know Him, and hear Him speak to them. You do, in the depths of your being, know that there is a God, and that it is all true. And you will believe openly one day, though probably not until you die, are separated from your body, and go to await Judgement Day before Christ. As I said, there are no unbelievers the other side of death's door.I appreciate you are probably busy, so you do not have to answer this.Yours, Justin Hughes.
Thanks for your email. I'd quite like to answer your email and continue our discussion.<< I would agree with much of what you say, but not for the same reasons. >>I was interested to hear that you largely agree with me. What precisely did you agree with, and how were your reasons for agreeing different?Also I'm glad to see you have reasons for agreeing with much of what I say. Previously I was getting the idea that your beliefs were pretty much implanted in you by your god, but I see that you don't wholly think that - rather some of your views are reasoned out. I would like to discuss your reasons with you, since you have opened conversation with me I think you should answer my responses.
Generally though, in your reply I think you've misunderstood me. Maybe you didn't read my links? People who leave Christianity include those who were previously convinced that they, like you, had a vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ. As I pointed out though, this relationship you feel so strongly is a doctrine that was invented by the German Pietist movement of the Eighteenth Century. Catholics feel strong emotions for the Virgin Mary, something many Protestants would balk at. The emotions felt are appropriate to the doctrines of one's sect. Moonies and Hare Krishnas feel strong emotions for their religious figure. So why should I consider your religious figure is any different?
<< I could not really engage in debate with you as that is not how God works. >>Why can I not equally claim "that is not how Allah works"? Why don't you just submit to Allah's will and praise Mohammed and recognise as the Angel Gabriel said, that Jesus was a prophet, not God in human form? Allah simply demands your submission, He does not regale you with intellectual arguments, that is not how He works.So again, why should I see your religion as deserving of people's assent when other religions make the same claim? What did Krishna say in the quotes I gave you in my last email? Did he ask for your intellect or your heart?<< I could not really engage in debate with you as that is not how God works. >>I asked why preach if God is the author who speaks to the heart? Are you arrogantly claiming you can open hearts that God cannot open himself? What is the point in you being a preacher and pastor? Are you not allowed to answer questions? Are you allowed to ask questions as a Christian? If not then does being a Christian mean committing intellectual suicide? If Christianity is coherent, then shouldn't it stand up to scrutiny?
<< You are right of course in what you say about so many people who accuse others of being 'false Christians'. But you must not assume that all that calls itself 'Christian' is Christian. >>Isn't that calling some people who claim to be Christians "false." What is the difference?The "you were not true Christians" claim. Given all I have said so far and the evidence available via my website, this really is clutching at non-existent straws. Why would God go to the trouble of incarnation and crucifixion only to allow Christians to find Christianity untenable, or give "spurious" experiences and "incorrect" interpretation to those who spend so many years trying to live the Christian life?Jesus Christ has been invited as many a personal saviour by multitudes of ex-Christians, who once felt, as you probably do, that they had a vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ. Christianity was once the centre of the universe for many of us. Lived it, thought it, felt it, preached it, discussed it, prayed privately and publicly, taken religious groups and been thanked for encouraging other Christians and helping them in their walk with Christ. Felt moved by religious experience and lost in numinous feeling of connection with God. Taken holy communion, partaken of agape's, retreats, missions and ordination classes. Written many books of Christian thoughts. I think it's fair to say we have sought and experienced.
How do you know that others have not had the correct experiences or that you have not had incorrect experiences but are not aware of it? How do you know that your experiences are of the "Holy Spirit?" How do you know that it is not Muslims, Buddhists or atheists who are having the "correct" mystical experiences? Do Moonies think they are in a cult or do they think they are having the correct experiences of the true Messiah? How do you know that others have not had the same experiences you have had (or better)? If you appeal to the bible, then why is the bible to be believed rather than another religious book? I have already given links to plentiful stories from ex-Christians with similar backgrounds and reported experiences to you. This is a ludicrous claim of yours given the wealth and diversity of experience of ex-Christians and the complete inability of their fellow Christians to tell that they were not having the "correct" experience whilst they were Christians, so putting the lie to Jesus claim that Christians can tell a tree by its fruit. Rather you *have* to believe we were not "true Christians" or otherwise your faith is in danger - if they could deconvert, then so could you. That is unthinkable "therefore" they could not have been having your experience. I have already had this debate at length here http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html
<< you must not blasphemously claim that the prayer of the Lord Jesus was not answered. >>Then I take it I must disagree with the bible in order not to be "blasphemous." Note the following:Luke 22:31 - 32
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:So what happened after Jesus' prayer?Matthew 26:69 - 7069. Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.
70 But he denied before [them] all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.So was Jesus' prayer answered or did Peter's faith fail?
<<The issue is nothing to do with what doctrine someone holds, in the first place, but whether they are filled with the Holy Spirit or not. >>Like you I also held denomination etc. to be unimportant when I was a Christian.<< There is no fellowship possible between those who are saved and those who are not. >>You have pointed out a very important reason why people should not be Christians. Exactly what I said at Why I left Christianity "I had been taught that you can only love God if you love your neighbour. It is ironic that I found I could only love my neighbour if I didn't love God."<< Jesus' prayer was answered, and is effectual. >>Referring to his disciples etc. at John 17:15 Jesus prayed: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them out of evil."
So where the disciples "kept out of evil" or do Christians believe that they met grizzly deaths?
Jesus also said Seek and ye shall find.
<< Your problem lies in that you are confusing nominal Christians with the genuine. >>I don't have a problem. I see Christians like you tell me that others are false. I also see Christians like you deconvert, despite previous complete conviction that they were having a "dynamic relationship with the living Christ." I gave you the references to see this yourself last time. All Christian types claim that it is their type who is the genuine variety. Why should I believe you rather than the others who contradict you? By next week I will have a few more emails from different kinds of Christians telling me "no, no - it is *my* brand of Christianity that is correct - the *others* have got it wrong." Rather than just assert that you are right and others are wrong, or quote from the bible when I can quote from the Koran, give me some reasons why you are right, otherwise you are making your religion look ridiculous. Make sure you read http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/feedback/mcfall/1.html<< The nominals outnumber the 'reals' by probably 12:1. >>Again, if someone is not 'real' then aren't you saying they are false and hence thwarting Jesus prayer? Also again, how do you arrive at your statistics?
<< As I said, you may have some effect on churches but you will not have any effect on The Church, they are with Christ, know Him, and hear Him speak to them. >>Another mere assertion. However, it's not me who's deconverting people, rather Christians tend to discover Christianity is false through their own discoveries. Usually it is a very lonely road out until people discover so many have gone before them. If the churches are safe, why did the Archbishop of Canterbury say that Christianity would be a dead religion in the UK within a generation? How is 1% of Brits a "safe" number? Isn't Christian belief still on the decline? Do you know that the worlds fastest growing religion is Islam? How about a test. Write down all the Christians you know who are "real" Christians by your definition. Keep that list in a safe place. Ten years later check your list to see how many are no longer Christians.<< You do, in the depths of your being, know that there is a God, and that it is all true. >>These are just assertions to convince yourself. Are you at all impressed if I write "You do, in the depths of your being, know that Allah is God, and that the Koran is all true"? Does that sound ridiculous? So why should I feel your religion in my depths and not someone else's? Actually, precisely because you do not want to debate me I think that "You do, in the depths of your being, know that Christianity is a mistake, and that it will all unravel if critically examined. " If I am wrong about your secret fears, then have the courage to read the links I give and take up my challenge and have an open ended discussion with me. Do you feel at all uncomfortable about reading my links? How can that be if Christianity is coherent and your faith is secure? If it is a fact that Christianity is a false religion, would you want to be a Christian?<< And you will believe openly one day, though probably not until you die, are separated from your body, and go to await Judgement Day before Christ. As I said, there are no unbelievers the other side of death's door. >>Is this really Christianity - assertions and threats of torture? Why have you repeated this assertion when I have already shown it is special pleading? From "Straight and Crooked Thinking" by Robert H. Thouless:- "There is a common fault in argument arising from the influence of prejudice which may be employed deliberately as a dishonest trick but which is more commonly used unwittingly by a speaker who is mislead by his prejudices. This is the use in one context of an argument which would not be admitted in another context where it would lead to the opposite conclusion. This is special pleading." Many Christian claims are special pleading and therefore at fault. To claim something for Christianity (e.g. the veridical nature of mystical experience) that you would not accept for another religion (e.g. the very different mystical experience of Buddhists and Daoists demonstrating their veracity rather than Christianity's) is a fallacious argument. Therefore such arguments carry no weight.And as I said:"I hope you won't find it unjust when after death you find yourself and all
those you helped to Christ are roasting in Allah's hell. He made you and
can do what he wants with you, so don't complain! Also do not presume that
you can judge Allah, the Koran explains that you must submit to his will."Krishna made us, so by failing to come to him, you and I will rightfully
and justly be tortured forever.Worse still you are gambling your whole life on what I think is a mistaken view of the world1 Cor 15:19 "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of men the most miserable."
<< I appreciate you are probably busy, so you do not have to answer this. >>I think you just want to have the last word. I'm afraid that won't do. You wrote to tell me something, and so you should respond to my responses. Either that or you must believe the following verses are false:1 Peter 3:15 "... be ready always to give an answer to every man that
asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Critically examine everything: hold on to the good."So, you exhort me to believe that fideism is the correct approach. Why then should it be faith in the *Christian* god, and not another god?<< All human beings instinctively know that there is a God, and they all fear death. >>If you really know there is a god and you are going to heaven then why do you fear death? (You said "all" humans fear death). What is your response to my quote?*******Begin quote********
In considering the search for evidence of the existence of God it is as
difficult as it is necessary for those of us who have been raised in
theist or post-theist societies to free ourselves from the prejudices of
such upbringings. I confess that I myself really began to do this only in
consequence of visiting the institute of Foreign Philosophy in Peking
University, Beijing.
There I was able to enjoy much philosophical talk with my graduate student
'minder'. He was of course acquainted with the concept of the theist God.
But he had met it only as today any of us might happen to come upon the
notions of Aphrodite or Poseidon. He had never had any occasion to
confront it as what William James called a 'live option' - any more than,
for any of our contemporaries anywhere, belief in the real existence of
the Olympians constitutes such an option.
So he did not know whether to be more amused or more indignant when he
first learnt from Descartes that our Maker has imprinted upon every human
soul - as his trademark, as it were - the (authentic) idea of God, a
concept that supposedly is too splendid to have been shaped by merely
human agency, and from which it is allegedly possible immediately to infer
the existence of the corresponding object God. For were not his
compatriots also supposed to be God's creatures; and, if so, how had God
failed to imprint his trademark upon their souls?
******End quote********
Best wishes,
From: Justin Hughes To: Steve LocksSent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 2:55 PMSubject: Re: HelloSteve,If that is not the longest e-mail I have ever received it must be on a par with it. Where do you find the time?! I assume you are cutting and pasting from previous letters to people. I will try and answer you.I acknowledge freely that there are numerous people who have dearly and sincerely held belief systems who would claim as you say. I know that the Muslim religion's adherents do just that. There is however one difference.Can I just ask you one question, because, having given this some thought, I think you cannot have had this. Have you heard 'That Voice'? Have you heard Him speak to you personally? I have, and so have all genuine Christians. In fact on one occaision He told me off for being critical, directly, while I was sat in a meeting. Do you know what I as speaking about? Do you remember a time when 'That Voice' melted your heart, and took away your doubts and fears, and stopped the words in your mouth, and humbled you? If not you never were a real Christian, you were just in Christianity, like the vast majority of professing Christians. That is you had a learned set of rules and beliefs.All mere religion has that in common, but all real Christians do actually know Christ, praise God! They do not just have a religion about Him, and notionally know Him.I have been engaging on the BBC messageboards, and have come across two folks just like you. One used to be a preacher indeed, saw miracles happen at his hands. He is now a pagan, following Satan's lies, and he's happy. The other definitely heard Him speak to her once. But she fell away for various reasons and is a pagan too.There are many people like it, and you know several it seems. God says that it would be like that did He not. He said that the end would not come unless there be a great falling away first. He said that not all who called on His name and did miracles etc., were His, Mt.7:21-23. The fact that there are several people in the category you mention is neither here nor there. In fact I would say that, whilst I am sad for you, and sorry for your end, which did not need to be as it will be, that I am somewhat encouraged, as Jesus is not far away.As for your point about being able to love your neighbour, you are right to some degree, in an oblique way. This is not grounds for not being a Christian as you suggest, as seperation from the world is the norm for us. What is the point of not being a Christian and being in seperation from God? I want Him. I am not interested in church, and the world per se. But I do love Him, and I will serve and follow Him whatever the price. I do love my neighbour, and help them out. They do not always want me to, but I do it. I am surprised you did not.Peter's faith did not fail. He was still there at Pentecost was he not. Sure it took a beating when he found that he could not stand in the flesh for Jesus, but look at the man post new birth at Pentecost! Such things are only contradictions to those who do not know the Lord, and do not have the Spirit of Truth, therefore.Contrary to your views, I do not spend any time telling others they are wrong. I leave that to those religious folks who, as they only have book learned/taught religion need to think that they have all the correct understanding there is. I simply follow Him who is the Truth, and I do not know everything. Many like to fight over doctrinal points, I do not bother.The whole reason why you, and those you know are where you are is that you never heard Jesus speak to you directly, and you never really knew Him. You were, I am sure, sincere and diligent in religion, but you never knew Him, but you can. He is waiting for you to stop your rebellion and seek Him out; Him Himself, until you find Him.Yours, Justin
<< If that is not the longest e-mail I have ever received it must be on a par with it. Where do you find the time?! >>I don't have the time and it is a struggle to keep up with my emails. However I think it is important to examine weighty claims people make and the demands that they make of us. So I respond to a representative few carefully, but to answer everyone in depth is impossible. Even so there is much I have to put on hold whilst I write these emails. As such I think that you should have the decency to respond to my responses. You wrote to me to tell me something, I raised objections which I believe are legitimate and very damaging to Christianity and then you have ignored virtually all my responses. That is time-wasting, and I would appreciate it if you took the time to actually consider what I write back and tell me what you honestly think. You don't have to write back straight away, in fact I would much rather you did not. Conversations where both take the time to consider each other's points and give measured responses are much more interesting. So far all you have given me are repeated assertions that any other religionist from another religion could make about their religious life. If you want to have anything other than a negative impact then you will have to engage with me properly and do what the bible says:-1 Peter 3:15 "... be ready always to give an answer to every man that
asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Critically examine everything: hold on to the good."So engage with me in critical examination and answer my questions. Please go back through my emails and answer the objections I have so far given. If you refuse to do this then I can only conclude that you think the above verses are false and hence you are not a real Christian.<< I assume you are cutting and pasting from previous letters to people. >>A bit, but I try to not do it too much as it makes conversations too impersonal.
<< I will try and answer you. >>Good, then please be true to your promise and go through my emails again carefully and actually respond to my points this time. Take as long as you need. Never respond the same day!
<< I acknowledge freely that there are numerous people who have dearly and sincerely held belief systems who would claim as you say. I know that the Muslim religion's adherents do just that. There is however one difference. >>And that difference is as you say...<< Have you heard 'That Voice'? >>As I said, all types leave Christianity, and you shoot yourself in the foot later by admitting that even you know at least one person who "definitely heard Him speak to her once. But she fell away for various reasons.."So can you see that I was right now? It even appears that you have already done the experiment I asked you to do in my last email and have proved me right! If the difference between a "true Christian" and a "false Christian" is that the "true" ones "hear That Voice" then even by your own admission such people can conclude that they were mistaken after all. I could show you hundreds more who were previously like you and yet concluded Christianity is a mistake. What is more you still have not addressed the point I made about special pleading. Have you heard the voice of Allah?So, answer this. If a Hare Krishna wrote an email to you and told you that you have never known the real Lord (Krishna) because you have not attained "Krishna Consciousness" (have you attained "That Consciousness?") and you secretly know in your heart that Krishna is the Lord and nobody who dies is in any doubt of that, then what would you think? Would you be the least impressed? What if you once were a member of the Hare Krishna's and knew hundreds of other former members including those who attained Krishna consciousness and were recognised as such by their Hare Krishna peers. And yet these people through study and reflection subsequently came to the conclusion that they were mistaking human feelings for divine ones and what is more discovered that the historical background to their faith was riddled with holes, their doctrines were quite morally abhorrent when critically examined and a far better spiritual life and mental health was found when they left their cult, despite their complete conviction of Krishna's divine status and presence in their hearts whilst they were Hare Krisnhas.So, what do you think a Hare Krishna would look like to these people if he merely repeatedly asserted to them that they had never known "true Krishna Consciousness" and that they were going to be judged by Krishna, which they secretly knew etc.? Don't you think it would look pretty empty and a sad remembrance of the confused ignorance that they once were cocksure of too? Indeed, no Christian knows real humility like an ex-Christian.<< ...That is you had a learned set of rules and beliefs. >>Did you come to your beliefs without being told about Christianity by other Christians, or did you learn beliefs from other people? Why are you so convinced that you are so unlike those who become ex-Christians and are still repeating these assertions when I have already told you that ex-Christians come from all ranges of experiences including those who previously claimed your experiences? Did you look into the resources I gave you? Christians tend to focus on me personally - to try and find some perceived weakness, and so miss the larger picture of the broad range of ex-Christians who are out there. I'm afraid that contrary to your opinion I did feel I heard and knew God in a very deep way. Deeper than deep - I've already told you that. Even if I hadn't, there are plenty of Christians who purport your experience, and plenty of people from other religions etc. who claim experiences that you should be having.So, as I asked repeatedly, why is *your experience* of *your god* the correct one? Don't Moonies, Muslims, Hindus, etc. etc. all make the same claim?Why did you not answer my point about special pleading? Answer it now - how do you know that it is your experience that is the correct one and not a Muslim's, atheist's etc.?Tell me where the Christians were exhorting us to invite Jesus into our hearts as our personal saviour before the German Pietist movement.
<< God says that it would be like that did He not. >>No he didn't. Rather there are verses in the bible that you have interpreted in that way. Others claim that God said different things in the Koran and the Bhagavad Gita etc. So why is your holy book the one to believe in? You are begging the question in assuming that what is in the Bible comes from a god.Would you believe the following?I am God.How do you know?Because I said so in verse 1 and God wouldn't lie.That is basically what you are claiming for your bible. The bible claims it is the word of God - but why should anyone believe that? It is just because they are repeatedly told so by others that they eventually swallow it and start having experiences to suit. Just as followers ofShabbetai Zevi wandered through the streets describing visions in which they had seen Shabbetai seated upon a throne.<< He said that the end would not come unless there be a great falling away first. >>The Buddha also predicted a time when Buddhism would diminish. So is he right? Mohammed prophesied a great turning to Islam, and that is happening, so is he right?The Great Prophecy Quran 048:028 He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, to make it prevail over all other religions. GOD suffices as a witness.
This is coming to pass as Islam is the world's fastest growing religion. http://204.202.137.112/sections/world/islam/islam.html So do you see this as evidence for Islam? If not then why do you hold Jesus purported prophesy as worth anything?
Another reason for a great falling away is that Christianity is false and as people become more educated they come to realise this. You didn't answer before, and since you told me that you will try to answer me, please do so now. If Christianity is not true, would you like to know that? If you are mistaking the human and natural for the divine and supernatural, then would you like to continue believing in a false supernatural view? If life and spirituality was more honest, true and generous outside of Christianity, and Jesus did not rise from a tomb, then would you want to know?
<< He said that not all who called on His name and did miracles etc., were His, Mt.7:21-23. >>So was he lying then when he said "Knock and the Door shall be opened" Seek and ye shall find.?And of course this one:-"Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you"--John 16:23"How we can testify to pouring over books of apologetics and asking in prayer for guidance as our faith was crumbling! It is a gut-wrenching discovery that Christianity is untenable. Current Christians have enormous difficulty understanding this. Most people become ex-Christians because their closer examination of Christian claims show supernatural Christianity to be unwarranted. How many Christians do you think have asked for faith in the spirit of John 16:23 and yet after a long struggle have concluded that Christianity is false? Given this, Jesus promises are patently false.So, on receiving this email, ask the Father in Jesus name that I may become a "true Christian" immediately. When you write back find out if I did and if I didn't you'll know that Jesus was not telling the truth and hence is not divine. Of course, you won't do this because you do not have faith that God would answer your prayer said in Jesus name. Instead you will ignore this or make up a rationalisation to explain why you cannot do this or why it won't work. What you will not do is take Jesus on his word. If you don't take Jesus on his word, then why should anyone think you are a "true Christian?" Why, indeed, should you believe yourself to be a "true Christian?"You previously exhorted me to believe that people will justly go to hell. It seems very ironic to me that the cruel biblical passages are so vigorously admired by some evangelical Christians whilst it is also scriptural for Christians to sell all they have to the poor or else they are lacking something according to Luke 18:22. "Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven." Only a minuscule proportion of Christians actually take this important advice. Personally it didn't even occur to me when I was a Christian, but now I have brought it to your attention do you really believe God so approves of this that he told us in human form that we should sell *all* to obtain riches in heaven? If so, then why are you not doing it? I wonder if this indicates that there is always some doubt in most Christians about Christianity. Something that hints that it doesn't really ring true with reality. So few who claim to be "true Christians" take Jesus seriously enough to give all their money away.<< The fact that there are several people in the category you mention is neither here nor there. >>It is very relevant. As explained above, the crux of your argument seems to be "have you (or others) had such-a-such experience." Since the answer is yes (and even you know of some such person), then the relevance of your experience for faith (let alone the certain knowledge) that Christianity is true falls completely flat.<< In fact I would say that, whilst I am sad for you, and sorry for your end, >>Appalling, belief in hell. I believe the holocaust is a fact. I also believe it is an insult to Jews to say that they deserved their fate, just as it is a dreadful insult to any human being to say that hell is their just deserts. Why can you not see that this is the same category? If I said I believe the holocaust happened and that the Jews deserved what they got, would you be alarmed at my statement, or think I believe a fact? Just think about what you are justifying for billions of humans. How the holocaust pales into insignificance compared to the moral horror of what you are standing up for.
<< which did not need to be as it will be, that I am somewhat encouraged, as Jesus is not far away. >>What have you found encouraging in our discourse? How do you know that "Jesus is not far away" and what do you mean by that?
<< As for your point about being able to love your neighbour, you are right to some degree, in an oblique way. >>Could you clarify the "oblique way" you are referring to?<< This is not grounds for not being a Christian as you suggest, as seperation from the world is the norm for us. >>That separation is exactly why someone should not be a Christian on moral grounds alone. The very heart of the Christian message is to tell you that there is something fundamentally wrong with humanity and the world. It is difficult to truly embrace life when it is seen as spiritually broken in some way, especially when so many of us are maddeningly hard to turn into Christians. I think that Christianity runs against the world and I have noticed the frequency with which ex-Christians report their surprise at the joy of life they discover when they leave Christianity, no matter how good they thought Christianity, their "relationship with Jesus" etc. was whilst Christian. So I'm afraid that Christianity sets you apart from those you perceive to be "of the world." Hence it is impossible to properly love others. This is so extreme that you feel comfortable with the idea of your fellow man "justly" roasting in hell whilst you bask in the beatific vision. How many billions roasting for eternity are you going to approve? Auschwitz was as nothing compared to that. Hell-believing Christianity is a moral monstrosity.<< What is the point of not being a Christian and being in seperation from God? >>There is no god to be separated from. What is the point of not being a Moonie and being separated from the Reverend Moon? What about not being a Hindu and being separated from Krishna? When will you answer your special pleading!The point of not being a Christian is connection with the world rather than running against it, ability to spiritually emphasise with your fellow man, rather than seeing him as someone walking in darkness. Most of all it is to no longer living an illusion. I am no more "separated from God" than you are. Both you and I are as "separated from God" in the same way that we are "separated from Zeus." If someone believed in Zeus then it would help them to realise that there is no Zeus, never has been and never will be, and they would be much better attuned to the world, other people and themselves, if they critically examined why they believed in Zeus, what their "relationship with Zeus" really was and saw why their religion was a mistaken view of the world.As I said at Why I left Christianity"The greatest benefit I discovered was the disappearance of a spiritual barrier for me between people. When I had strong religion, my feeling was that if someone did not know God, then they where "not yet fully human" (though I did the best to not think this, it was there). A "non-Christian" was "spiritually misguided" and it was impossible to properly relate to or feel for such a person. I was in a "spiritually superior state". Now I see Christians just as people but with a mistaken belief, just like I may disagree with someone's politics, in that it doesn't mean I am in a different relationship to God (or Jesus) than them! There is a big difference between disagreeing with someone and thinking your relationship with a deity is different. I now see us all as vulnerable human beings full of hopes and fears and psychological tangle. The relief from religious problems and the fresh perception of a world I had hardly seen before, and the real ability to accept people deep down has made me very happy. For me there came a feeling of all people and nature being in the same boat together, a feeling deep down of "brotherliness" and most of all a sense of complete understanding and acceptance of life. From all this came great compassion for our messy human situation and remarkable connection with a world that I finally felt I understood. None of this is what I had expected to find and I was completely shocked to find so much spiritual love outside of religion. (Karen Armstrong points out that nontheistic Buddhists describe belief in God as "unskilful," as it can actually harm the spiritual life of a person). "All this was a discovery, and nothing that I had expected or even thought of before I found Christianity to be untenable.A Muslim would ask you what is the point of Christianity. As it says at Former Christian Priests and Missionaries who have Embraced Islam "I knew why Muslims are the hardest people in the world to convert to Christianity. Why? Because there is nothing to offer them!! In Islam there is a relationship with Allah, forgiveness of sins, salvation and promise of Eternal Life." ... "I also like very much the rule of forgiveness in Islam and the direct relationship between God and His servants."<< I want Him. >>It is a manufactured relationship. What is your answer to the Chinese student? If you want to convince me of anything you have to answer my questions.<< I am not interested in church, and the world per se. But I do love Him, and I will serve and follow Him whatever the price. >>Just like Steve Hassan said about the Reverend Moon before he was deprogrammed.<< I do love my neighbour, and help them out. They do not always want me to, but I do it. I am surprised you did not. >>I did love my neighbour too, which is one of the reasons I wondered what was wrong with Christianity, as it was a force for attempting to thwart that love. However I did not let it - I saw something was up and was too curious and desiring of a deeper relationship with others. You however are content to be spiritually divided from those "in the world" even to the extent of approving of their eternal damnation. Maybe you too will one day find out how the love that Christians attempt to have for their neighbour is actually a travesty of what we really can have and give. It depends on how much you care about being honest to yourself and face up to the kinds of questions I'm asking.
<< Peter's faith did not fail. He was still there at Pentecost was he not. >>It did fail. Jesus prayed that it wouldn't, then it did. Whatever the final outcome (all just according to the bible) would you not expect Jesus' prayer to work straight away? Do you really think that Jesus' prayer would fail at all?<< Sure it took a beating when he found that he could not stand in the flesh for Jesus >>So you agree with me that his faith failed after Jesus prayed that it would not.<< but look at the man post new birth at Pentecost! >>All you have for this is the NT which is full of holes. The Jerusalem church was very different from the church that prevailed with Paul's view. It seems that the "apostles" held very different views than you do about Jesus. I have written about this at length on my debate on the resurrection. I doubt you will read it, as from your comments it looks like you are avoiding my links. That is why I have been pasting the little I have - it is the only way to get you to read what I have already written. Also see Jesus before Christ and The Real Jesus.<< Such things are only contradictions to those who do not know the Lord, and do not have the Spirit of Truth, therefore. >>How much credence would you give a Muslim who said that the contradictions in the Koran are only contradictions to those who do not know Allah, and do not have the Spirit of Truth, therefore?If the bible was a work of bronze age humans, how different do you think it would look from the cruel and contradictory collection that it actually contains?"For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." (Jeremiah 3:12)
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." (Jeremiah 17:4)And Jesus said, "For judgment I am come into this world." (John 9:39)
"I came not to judge the world" (John 12:47)"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." (John 5:31)
"Jesus answered: Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid." (John 8:14)"The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezechial 9:4-6)"This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass .... And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword." (1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)"A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work!
A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!" (Jeremiah 48:10)Is this the word of the loving and just God of the universe or the writings of bronze age warriors?Your god (or bronze age warriors):
Deuteronomy 15:17 "Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it
through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever.
And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise."
versus
The UN council Declaration of Human Rights:
"No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading
treatment or punishment."
<< Contrary to your views, I do not spend any time telling others they are wrong. I leave that to those religious folks who, as they only have book learned/taught religion need to think that they have all the correct understanding there is. I simply follow Him who is the Truth, and I do not know everything. Many like to fight over doctrinal points, I do not bother. >>There is a good chance your religion would fall apart if you did bother. It is common for deconversion to happen in the seminary/theological college. So ignorance is safer.Few Christians take Christianity so seriously that they are willing to get
to the heart of it. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Critically examine everything:
hold on to the good." However for the noble few who do take their beliefs
so seriously that they think they can survive scrutiny, as can be seen from
my site, this leads them to discovering how wrong they were and they
often become ex-Christians. It is such a common story that a
serious Christian decides to get to the bottom of their apologetic
arguments in order to refute critics but finds it can't be done and slowly
come to realise that Christianity is untenable. So to remain a Christian
you will have to stay "general" and vague with your apologetics - never
pursue my questions to the end, rather refer me to somewhere else. You
will have faith that someone can answer me but like every other Christian
it will not be you! Indeed no Christian can.Consider this from the German Theologian Gerd Lüdemann :"I see myself as being in the tradition of this school and practice a strictly historical exegesis of the New Testament in the framework of the religions of the Hellenistic period. My monographs on Simon Magus,9 the chronology of Paul,10 and anti-Paulinism in early Christianity,11 and a commentary on the historical value of the Acts of the Apostles,12 are evidence of this and have brought me international recognition. But in the course of my investigation of the resurrection of Jesus,13 of the heretics in early Christianity,14 of the unholy in Holy Scripture,15 of the virgin birth16 and finally, in the present book, of the many words and actions of Jesus which have been put into his mouth or attributed to him only at a later stage, I have come to the following conclusion. My previous faith, related to the biblical message, has become impossible, because its points of reference, above all the resurrection of Jesus, have proved invalid and because the person of Jesus himself is insufficient as a foundation of faith once most of the New Testament statements about him have proved to be later interpretations by the community. Jesus deceived himself in expecting the kingdom of God. Instead, the church came; it recklessly changed the message of Jesus and in numerous cases turned it against the mother religion of Judaism. "
<< The whole reason why you, and those you know are where you are is that you never heard Jesus speak to you directly, and you never really knew Him. You were, I am sure, sincere and diligent in religion, but you never knew Him, but you can. He is waiting for you to stop your rebellion and seek Him out; Him Himself, until you find Him. >>How many times are you going to make the same refuted assertion? You yourself said, that you know at least one person who "definitely heard Him speak to her once. But she fell away for various reasons.." So even you have refuted yourself, and I am painfully aware of so many other examples and even gave you the URLs to check up on this. So you are completely wrong in your claim. Now are you going to stop your rebellion against Allah and submit to his will? Just yesterday I got another email from a Muslim exhorting me in the same way you do. As I said before, the most common reason for deconversion appears to be that through research and thinking, many Christians come to honestly believe supernatural Christianity is untenable. This is seldom confronted as possibly being the real reason by Christians. Christians do not believe Christianity is untenable and many have a hard time accepting that anyone who has really experienced Jesus/God can abandon their faith ("it could never happen to me"). Therefore our problem with it "must have been" due to a bad experience etc. or that we were never "true Christians" in the first place (just as ex-Muslims are accused of never having been "real Muslims" http://www.secularislam.org/testimonies/index.htm). If we have really all been unable to find the "real thing" then it conflicts with Jesus' purported claim that those who seek will find http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html. So instead ex-Christians get diagnosed all kinds of spurious flaws. However, it is not because the churches are corrupt, wishy-washy, we missed a certain book recommendation/website, were sucked into a "false Christianity" or anything else, but rather that honest thought into religious beliefs often leads people out of that belief much to their surprise and indeed frequently shock. Our Christian backgrounds are too diverse and too educated for it to be likely that there is an apologetic or experience we have missed.Examine your assertions that we are "rebelling" against the Christian God. I don't think you've appreciated that we had views and experiences like yours and the whole of the rest of the Christian spectrum, and our researches demolished those views! Hence it is not fair to appear to lay some sort of moral blame on us and write that we are "rebelling" as if we had decided to try a new philosophy or something. Rather the evidence against Christianity is what causes our Christian view to be demolished. Some go quietly, others go kicking and screaming, but it is grossly misrepresentative to imply that in anyway we have chosen or decided to try apostasy. Loosing faith is something that happens to a person, and not a deliberate "choice" despite what Christians are frequently told at church. Unfortunately for Christians they often have to believe that we are deliberately choosing unbelief. If not then it makes the justice of hell look dubious, and heaven rather disturbing. Therefore it "must be" our fault for so "radically and wilfully" changing our views.That's it for now.Here's some incentive for you to sit down and carefully answer all my replies to your statements.If you go through my emails and take your time to give me a considered reply to every response I have made, then I will with an open heart and mind carefully recite any prayer you care to write at the end of your full reply email. You have until the end of 2002 to write me such a reply (if you need longer, then let me know before the end of 2002). If you either write back straight away (i.e. the next day or two) or take longer than the end of the year (or an extension), or even worse merely repeat the same assertions about what you believe I and no other ex-Christian could not have experienced, despite all I have told you, then I will blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I am not asking for a scholarly response, merely a considered and careful response as best you can to all the points I have made in response to you. Remember you wrote to me first, so you should stand up for the statements you make, or else risk making Christianity look weak indeed in the eyes of the curious (much of the material from my email conversations eventually gets incorporated into my website).Thanks for your time, and I hope you will be willing to engage with me. If "true Christians" are as rare as you say, and you are one of them, then you may be a rare chance for me to really know where I've gone wrong if indeed I have. Likewise if you are wrong, I hope you would have the integrity to want to know that. If you want me to take you seriously, then you will have to take me seriously too.Best wishes,
From: Justin Hughes To: Steve LocksSent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 5:18 PMSubject: Your mega e-mailSteve,You have exceeded yourself again. I printed off your message so that I could more easily read it, and make notes. It is ten pages long! Boy you really are against Jesus aren't you! Well I am sorry Christendom hurt you so badly that you feel you need to spend so much time attacking the gospel. I will answer your points such as I can to an outsider who cannot understand spiritual things.I did answer your points last time, I told you that the reason why you fell away from Christendom as you never knew Christ. You never heard Him speak to you, and you never had a relationship with Him, you only had, as the majority do, religion about Him. That is the answer to all your questions. If you knew Him you would not be where you are. It is not a case of being a real Christian or not. This is nothing to do with how much doctrine you know and believe, but who you have an actual relationship with.The gospel is very simple. Man lost His relationship with God through sin, Christ came to deal with sin in man so that he may be restored into fellowship with God. Jesus did not come to start a religion.I have seen your 'Why I left Christianity' article. It proves my point. You left Christianity, and for that I am thankful indeed, but you did not leave Christ as you never knew Him in the first place. You are not an ex-Christian, you are an ex-churchman. I do not have any fears for you such as I would have for someone who left Christ, and signed their own death warrant. You never knew Christ, only about Him. Sure, it sounds cheap to say that, and indeed pagans do say that as well of those who leave pagan religion, but in this case it is real.Seeing as you say I did not answer your questions, I should point out that you did not answer mine. I asked you if you had heard 'That Voice', if you knew Him and walked with Jesus Himself, yourself. You did not answer, and I know that the answer to that is 'no'. There is no mention on your site that you ever heard Him or knew Him, you just adopted what you thought was 'Christianity', but it was only church religion about Christ. I know 'That Voice', and there is no mistaking it when you hear it. On one occasion indeed He rebuked me. When He does that it stops your nonsense let me tell you!I do not shirk the answering of questions, I did answer you completely by pointing out the cause of your problem. If you put the cause right all your questions would evaporate.The gospel of Jesus Christ is not an intellectually assembled belief system. It cannot be understood by mere intellect, reason, debate, theology, etc. If I just use a lose analogy; I could tell you all about my mother, and you could believe my testimony or deny it. Let's say you believed me and held a strong belief in the existence of my mother. Perhaps I produced some letters written by her for you to see, and you firmly believed these to be the 'word' of my mother. You could say that you had strong faith in my mother. Then one day some shock comes along and your faith is shaken. The person attacking you for faith in my mother says to you, "O, no one believes that any more. That is just myth, and it is all a creation of Justin's overactive mind." You would be knocked down, but I would not. What you needed was to know my mother for yourself. You would not then be so knocked down.That is the difference. I know Jesus Christ, and He lives in me by His Spirit. I know His voice, and I have glimpsed Him spiritually. You never did.Your point about the example I gave you; the woman involved did hear Him speak to her once but she never established that relationship in which she heard Him regularly, but was diverted into 'church', i.e. corporate religion, and when push came to shove she could not stand. What I said does not prove your point, though it is quite possible for someone to fall away after they are saved, (the parable of the seed and sower). We must be tried, and some do not stand the test.I would say your point about true humility does not stand, as it is not humility at all but desolation, that that in which they had invested so much proved false, their false religion of 'Krishna', and your false religion of 'Christianity' (without Christ).I did not come to my beliefs by being drilled to a set of rules. Like all Christians I came to Christ the author of the Bible, (through men), and then to the Word of God. In knowing the Author of the Book I could see what the Book was. You came to a belief system which you were taught, and no doubt sincerely believed, but you still missed the gospel, and you never were filled with Spirit.The reason why all Christians have the genuine thing is because it works, if I can put it like that. The power of sin is broken in their lives, and they are brought into living communion with Christ, and God the Father. They do not have to sin any more, but can do so if they choose. I know people who have been miraculously healed, and some that I have prayed for have too.The reception of Christ into the heart is all through the Scripture, never mind any pietist movement.How do Christians know that God, Jehovah, is the real one? They know Him, and He has saved them from the power of sin and death. That is not invalidated just because some go back to sin.Muhammed was taught some of the Bible by RC missionaries, that is where he got his jumbled idea of what Scripture says.Christ did rise from the tomb, I know Him.I have seen and experienced supernatural Christianity, and you will not by mere intellect be able to overthrow that.I could go on, but I am very tired due to being at Heathrow at 6.30 this morning.All I can say to you is that you will never come to understand the things of God until you are prepared to leave your insulting God by not believing Him and come to Him, humbly. Salvation is 'by grace, through faith, and that not of yourself it is the gift of God.' Jesus said, "No man can come to me except my Father draw them." I have been drawn by His grace, and so must you be. There is no point continuing to converse as you will not get me to leave my Lord, and I could not convince you intellectually of your folly as normal spiritual Christianity is not intellectual but by faith, which is authored in us when God speaks to us. Until that happens to you you cannot see or understand spiritual things, and you will fail, both in your purpose of destroying the gospel, and of saving your own life from what follows after your death.I leave you to your path. You will believe post your death, either because you were properly saved you died, or you are in Hell. There are no unbelievers the other side of death's door. When you know Jesus (Jn.17:3) you will understand.Yours, Justin