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To: Scott
Sent: 22 April 2001 11:20
Subject: Re: Curious believer. :0)
Hello Scott,
Thanks for your friendly
email.
<< do you believe there is a God who exists?
>>
You shouldn't worry too much about me personally. In general,
from my
interactions with ex-Christians, something over 3/4's become atheists
or
agnostics. The rest go onto some kind of non-Christian theism,
pantheism,
Wicca, you name it. Even there some drift on to something else,
but the
general trend seems to be towards a more secular stance.
As
for me, if you really must know (why do you want to?) no I don't.
It's a
belief that I find I don't have. Not sure knowledge, but I am
unaware of any
good reason for believing there are any gods, so I
find myself in a state of
unbelief. However, it is only Christianity that
I have a decent knowledge of
- I have not made a detailed study of
other religions, but I am unaware of
any good reason for believing in
their gods either. Also see
www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/posts.html#liberal
Usually
Christians rejoinder with "how can you be sure there isn't a
god - have you
looked everywhere?" However, the point is rather that
I know of no good
reason to think that there is a god, just as I can think
of no good reason to
think that there has been a stranger hiding unseen
in various rooms of my
house all the time I have lived here. I can't prove
that there isn't somebody
sneaking around my house who is good at
hiding, but with no reason to suspect
there is I find it hard to believe
there is such a person. Also a long
examination of the claims of
Christianity has led me to find it full of
fallacious arguments - see my
debate starting at www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jordan.html
for
an example of what I mean.
Relatedly, Christians often describe
belief as a "choice" but how can that
be? How can one honestly "choose" to
believe something is true? Either
something convinces me or it doesn't. Is it
even psychologically possible
to believe something you don't believe? Can you
choose to believe that
insects have four legs Lev.11:21, 23 or that commands
to kill babies
Ezechial 9:4-6 and hamstring horses Joshua 11:6 are
commands from
a good God ? I find such things unbelievable, without having to
make a
choice. It seems obvious to me - see
www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/babble.html.
I could multiply examples
but if you follow my long debate and research into
the resurrection
starting at www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jordan.html
then you
will see the sort of material that convinced me I was mistaken
about
Christianity. It was not a choice to not believe, just a feeling
of
realisation that I had been wrong.
For more on honest belief not
being a choice see my long conversation with
Dr. Garrett which starts
at
www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/feedback/garrett/1.html
<<
Do you think it is possible for a true Christian to actually "convert"
to ...
someone who is not saved? >>
Firstly, what is a "true Christian?"
There are so many different versions
of what a Christian must do to be
"saved" that nobody is a "true
Christian" by every Christian's definition. It
also begs the question that
there is anything to be "saved" from. Do you
think it is possible for a
true Muslim to actually "convert" to someone who
is not saved? The
Koran says:
"Pagans indeed are those who say that God is
the Messiah, son of Mary.
The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel,
you shall worship God; my
Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol
beside God, God has
forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The
wicked have no
helpers. Pagans indeed are those who say that God is a third
of a trinity.
There is no god except the one god. Unless they refrain from
saying this,
those who disbelieve among them will incur a painful
retribution."
[Koran 005:072-73]
The best I can do for you is to tell
you that from my collected stories it
seems that representatives from every
Christian type do indeed deconvert.
Tell me what kind of Christian you think
would not leave Christianity and
I'll see if I can dig out any stories from
such kinds who did - like I did
for Tammy D. Sundby at
www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/feedback/tammy_d_sundby2.html
Few
Christians think that they (a "true Christian") would ever deconvert
until it
happens to them!
If you haven't read my "Seek and Ye shall Find" debate
then please do so
as it is very relevant. See www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html
<<
Oh yeah - one more quick question - Are there absolutes? :) Well
maybe not
such a short answer... >>
Absolutely not! (joke!)
Actually I
am not sure. Top philosophers have been discussing this one for
ages.
Christians often like to argue that without absolutes we can have no
morals.
Unfortunately this one has been argued to death and you can easily
find
debates on this at the secular web if you want something to send
yourself to
sleep. Generally I think that theists and non-theists have the
same problem
though - it is we who have to judge whether any god is really
good and it is
we who are or are not convinced by religious arguments, and
even by religious
experiences.
As I mention at www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jreply2.html
the
Christian apologist and debater William Craig ultimately takes the
line
that he just "knows" Christianity is true due to his religious
experience.
Despite being keen to use logic and evidence in debates
with
non-Christians, Craig wrote: "Should a conflict arise between
the
witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian
faith
and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the
former
which must take precedence over the latter, not vice
versa."
[William Craig - Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and
Apologetics,
1994]. Indeed from reading the debate and analyses in
"Jesus'
Resurrection: Fact or Figment : A Debate Between William Lane
Craig
and Gerd Lüdemann" it appears that despite his initial appeal to
sift
historical evidence, the crunch of the argument for Craig is that
his
personal religious experience convinces him of the resurrection.
To
claim something for Christianity (e.g. the veridical nature of
mystical
experience) that you would not accept for another religion (e.g. the
very
different mystical experience of Buddhists and Daoists demonstrating
their
veracity rather than Christianity's) is a fallacious argument
(special
pleading). See
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jreply2.html#5
http://stripe.colorado.edu/~morristo/ivanhoe.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/michael_martin/holy_spirit.html
A
digression there into religious experience...back to absolutes:-
I just
remember that we are all humans. Thus we may have many things in
common and
so I think that somethings are absolutely wrong from a human
perspective,
such as torture. It is merely the inability to be inside
somebody else's
skull that makes us not care - i.e. a lack of appreciation
of what things are
like. The universe itself seems indifferent though, so
some aspects of
morality may be absolute to humans (or at least those of
us with enough
empathy to care) but I doubt morality is a law of the
universe. The universe
did not step in to stop the holocaust. As for the
Christian God, if one is a
bible believer then God not only approves of
and encourages rape, child
murder and animal cruelty but he actually
commands such things! http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/babble.html
However,
the problems of absolutes for Christians get even worse - see
http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/absolutemorals.htm
I
hope that is of interest.
Best
wishes,
Steve
----------------
Leaving Christianity: www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html
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