Posts about religion

Tappity, tappity, tap...

All my replies are in black. Other posters are in various colours - one for each poster per message.

What I heard at evensong

I had forgotten this jolly little story.

Synopsis:-
King David misbehaves and so God kills his baby as a punishment even though king David spends ages saying he's sorry.

The Priest said "This is the word of God"

The congregation replied "Thanks be to God!"

I was a little disturbed.

Caution - don't get carried away when criticising religion!

I might get a little heat from this, but I think something needs to be said. I know this list serves primarily as a support group and that one of those support functions is providing a safe place for people to vent and rant. And that's great! We all get to cheer together, and empathise; it promotes catharsis and healing.

However, I am concerned about the long term consequences of unchecked ranting; I worry that we might become as intolerant of those who are different, as we are of those we rightly criticise.

An interesting post. No heat will be dealt out here, just comments.

I've been slogging my way through the archives over the past few weeks and have noticed so far that most posting is well balanced, but there are cycles and epicycles of ranting/debating, some of which gets quite heated. Nevertheless I have been impressed by how sensible posts in general are - especially as extians don't get divine guidance like we used to in the good old xtian days ;-) This is certainly the most interesting list I've found.

I have also noticed posts like "A little caution (Re: *vent letter*)" pop up occasionally as checks to overheating. They seem to be well taken and usually someone says "I'm glad somebody said that."

To balance the feeling of excessive extian ranting may I quote one of the many examples of level headedness and generosity (I will spare the writer's blushes my keeping it anon (it certainly wasn't me))....

My belief in God and religion was not due to a lack of willpower, because had I doubted the truth of it, I would have rejected it. It had nothing to do with wanting to ease some pain or escape reality (which is what drugs are used for), because there was no pain in my life at the time, and I believed God was the reality. I know its hard to accept, but some people are christians simply because they believe God is real and the bible is true, and they cannot live contrary to the truth. It doesn't always have to do with escapism, or fear. A lot of very reasonable people are Christians, simply because they have not looked into the matter enough to realise it is unreasonable. After all, I was reasonable enough to examine my own beliefs and reject them in light of the evidence (or lack of evidence). I was simply looking for the truth as I always have, and will continue to do. My beliefs will continue to change as I gain more knowledge.

Isn't this the point! We were all xtians once, some of us super-fundie, others wishy-washy liberals. We've been there, we know what it's like (from our point of view anyway) and presumably do not *really* wish unpleasant things upon ourselves now or then or on those like us as we were. I'm glad nobody duffed me up when I was a xtian. BUT, some of us do feel xtianity to be a bad thing because of how it screwed so many of us up, even when we thought it was good!

And I should say, I picked Jeff's letter only because it was handy, not because I'm singling him out. (I rather enjoy most of his posts. ;-)

Yes, I felt sorry for Jeff as I thought he might feel very guilty or rejected (maybe not, I don't know how he'll necessarily take it). I get the impression that despite the larks he is a sensitive and intelligent soul. After all he mainly seems to dislike religion because of its cruelty (as well as being full of logical holes) if I read his posts and web pages correctly. Also I could emphasise with him to some extent, because although I usually take the "live and let live" stance, xtianity emotionally involves me unlike Islam (which is *probably* worse if I was to be cool about it) and it is easy to get upset, just as it is easy to write emails without thinking through every ramification of what one is saying.

Sounds like a case of moron-itis. Give her two shotgun shells in the face and call me in the morning.

Obviously, he's joking here. We understand that, and we laugh. But what if he had said "sounds like a case of nigger-itis" or "homo-itis" or "jew-itis"?  Would we still laugh as heartily? Why or why not? Do we really want to promote an attitude of violence, even if it is in jest?

I would agree to lower the "violent" tone, but of course he's joking (have you ever seen a JB post without a joke?). I sometimes feel I have overdone it too when I speak out. Maybe it's just a release from the pressure of not being allowed to think certain things when a xtian, I don't know.

<snip>

Does being "ex-tian" automatically equal "atheist"?

Not necessarily, but usually the shock is so great, I would think, that one becomes sceptical enough to not take any belief system uncritically thereafter.

Does "theist" automatically equal "idiot"?

No, of course not. Bonhoeffer and Alfred Whitehead were not idiots, even Wittgenstein was riddled with some sort of theism (whatever he meant by it, who can tell...;-)). But theist might mean a lack of having examined the evidence, or at least conservative theist might. (I'm sure Wittgenstein could pull me to threads on that one!) From my experience I would claim that xtian (not necessarily *theist*) would mean barrier between oneself and others.

Does "atheist" automatically equal "correct-for-everyone-at-all-times" and there is something wrong with you if you think otherwise?

How many times did you hear people in your old christian circles say, "some of my best friends are _X_" just before they proceeded to make brutal fun of said _X_ category?

Point taken.

Personally, I know several well educated, liberal christians; people who have no qualms with science and evolution, who support gay rights and a woman's right to choose abortion, who dedicate a lot of time and money to feed the hungry, clothe and house the homeless, and to otherwise help people in distress. People who are as shocked and concerned about the rise of the Radical Right in politics, and the rise of fundamentalism in the mainline denominations.

Yes, quite so. I was liberal (and I *did* consider myself xtian, I believed in the resurrection and the existence of God but the rest was a search). I hope I wasn't too unpleasant to non-xtians, although in retrospect some of the things I did/said make me cringe.

Religion is not the enemy folks, fundamentalism is.

Well, that's a tricky one. It appears voluminously in the archives and I wouldn't like to say yes or no to it. I would personally find fundies scary and in need of a reality check, whereas those who keep their religion to themselves to be doing just that. It's none of my business. I know "strong atheists" might disagree. I (probably) wouldn't disagree (today (I think (maybe (err..)))).

Steve

Liberal Christian experience

Has anyone else investigated the much more liberal and liberated (IMO) side of Christianity at all, and had any success or failure with it?

I have. Most of the time it was very thoughtful, fun and seemed to me quite loving as well. I think most of the people I knew as xtians were an okay bunch. The problem with xtianity is basically that it is not true. Some xtians are nice others are not. But if you find out something is not true it is impossible to believe it any longer, no-matter how much fun/fellowship one may have had with a liberal bunch of xtians. Unless of course the psychological pressure is high, but for me it wasn't.

Steve

................A following post............

I could still see that the world didn't always conform to what the bible said, and that the judgmentalness in me when i took on that mindset contradicted what i understood Jesus's emphasis on forgiveness and meekness to be.

Yes, I once said to an annoying xtian at the end of a long discussion "what is most important to you, is it truth and love or is it xtianity? If you were to find a conflict between being truthful and loving and the beliefs of xtianity then which way should you go?" The possibility that someone has honestly come to that conclusion actually shut him up for a bit (just a *bit* though!).

I also found it painfully constricting for my own thoughts, and horribly fearmongering to keep wondering every time i had a question or a doubt if i had crossed the line that would send me to hell. Eventually i had to question Christianity more seriously, and it fell apart slowly while i realised (also slowly) that the ideology created a manipulative mental trap.

I wonder if there is a prize for anyone being the zillionth person to independently find this out. Makes me think there is something in it. Should the xtians be told?! ;-)

However, i've also gotten flack from some Christians, atheists, *and* Pagans for being attracted to and participating in liberal Episcopalian Eucharist, which i've been doing on and off since i felt a "hunger" for spontaneously last November. Yes, i am attempting to discover whether there is some way i can mesh the powerful experience i have with Eucharist with my mostly non-Christian beliefs in a way that actually works and has integrity.  I don't know yet if this is even possible.  I'm also finding out if there are any churches out there that wouldn't completely freak if i were to continue to participate even after they know my beliefs.  I could never go back to fundamentalism, ever... but whether it's possible for me to find some niche within the Episcopalian church... i have no idea yet.  Has anyone else investigated the much more liberal and liberated (IMO) side of Christianity at all, and had any success or failure with it?

I posted a short reply to this yesterday, but I have thought of more stuff since.

I guess the psychology involved in such a desire may tell much about what attracts some of us to religion. For me the religious sentiments make me feel too uneasy (and sometimes sick in the stomach) to partake of religious services too much. However, I do enjoy the music and even the atmosphere to some extent. Every year I go off to sing the services at evensong with a bunch of beery choir atheists at various cathedrals, as I posted before. Some people claim that it is merely fear that drives people to religion. Whilst I would agree that such an element is present there are other elements as well - after all, humans are complex creatures. One of these is the mystery, awe and numinousness people sometimes feel. Stand in a huge ornate building lit by candlelight with ethereal music and strange sayings and how might you feel? Attracted to it by the right brain hemisphere I would guess. Thank Darwin for the evolution of the left hemisphere to prevent us all being constantly bewitched!

In the UK at least there are quite a few atheist priests. I know of one personally, and another two that are so ridiculously liberal that they would have no problem with you at all.

Have you read any Don Cupitt? He is an atheist priest, theologian and philosopher. He might be of interest to you in understanding some of the feelings that still draw you to religious services.

Steve

"Only human beings feel like this,
It is because they are so mixed.
All human beings should have a medal,
A god cannot carry it, he is not able."
- Stevie Smith

......and similarly.........

Unlike some of you, My xtian experience was a fairly pleasant one.  I am still friendly with most of my xtian friends, though I sometimes wonder what their motive is.  Are they trying to "get me back?"  I'll take any friends I can get right now, though.

Mine was also very pleasant. Some of my best friends are still xtians 11 years after my deconversion. Some know about my position about religion and completely accept it with no problem that I can see, others I haven't told because I don't want to upset them, as we shared lots of "spiritual" things in the past (and I mean of the best, loving kind). One of my close xtian friends did once press me on which church I went to now and I could tell he was a bit upset when I had to give an explanation of why I wasn't happy with the evangelical church I attended (I didn't go as far as explaining my non-belief). I really couldn't cope with his upset as he is a genuinely kind person (he's a liberal catholic BTW). A small minority of my xtian friends do have a problem with my position and did try to talk me back a little, but soon gave up when it became clear how much work I had done on the subject. So, I think your friends could be genuinely loving or working from a hidden agenda, I would think only you could gauge that, I would just say either are possible.

When I was a xtian I remember (at my best) feeling genuine concern for my atheist friends without desire to convert them, and (at my worst) thinking of only what a "backsliding" friend was missing if she left xtianity. Her feelings of discovery or pain did not occur to me at the time. Others on this list could tell you horror stories. I didn't have any personally.

Nice to meet you.

Steve

........And similarly again...........

but my point is that at least some forms of Christianity make less of an appeal to blind faith and are generally more reasonable and tolerant.

But the very name "Christ"ianity, implies belief in a character who we have no logical reason for considering to be special enough to be singled out like that.

I agree.  That's why, despite the things i like about liberal forms of Christianty, i can't consider myself to be one.  Nevertheless, i'm glad that such liberal forms exist, and that Christianity isn't *only* found in the fundamentalist versions.  For those who continue to believe in Jesus, yet can't stand the manipulations of fundamentalism, the liberal churches can be a much healthier alternative.  Not perfect, mind you, but much less manipulative and mind-twisting.

I must agree with Kris here as it matches my experience too. (Not that I'm glad that *any* form of xtianity still exists mind you...). However I remember the Anglicans, Methodists and Catholics that I knew being very different from the fundies often described on this list. They (and I) often got upset at the tactics and harsh beliefs of the evangelical Christian Union on my old campus. They couldn't stand the homophobia, easy answers, hellfire and evangelism (the CU had a conversion quota per week they were each meant to fulfil!) I remember seeing an angry poster from the Methodists against the small mindedness of the CU stating how little mystery and spirituality they saw in the evangelicals approach.

The only reason we thought atheists were lacking something was because we thought they must necessarily have little spirituality (bunk I know, but that's what we thought). We had no problem with those of other "faiths," just the evangelicals, charismatics and any fundamentalists. A few times we were disgusted by the CU attempting to convert Muslims or Jews etc, who we saw as people on a spiritual path who were not to be rudely interrupted.

Doesn't mean xtianity is any more valid or logical (see, I also agree with Charlie), just that there is a big spectrum of approaches to it. I know everyone knows this, but few on the list mention this from first-hand experience. For some xtianity is fire insurance, for others its attraction is as a means of spiritual growth. I was shocked to hear the minister at my last church say that there was only *one* way to god - that wasn't what I had been brought up as a liberal Anglican to believe.

I hope that wasn't too wishy-washy ;-)

Steve (ex-liberal-wishy-washy-Anglican)

Trauma of leaving religion

It's not hysterical at all.  My god is dead.  I'm in mourning.  I truly wish that there were a wonderful, loving, all perfect being to watch over me and take care of me.  I've been threatened by hell all my life, and treasured christ all my life, and now that's gone.  It's scary, it's a giant step for me, and I value the advice and opinions of those who have gone before me.

At the risk of boring those who have heard it before, I offer you a snippet of my story. I have said to a couple of people (maybe one of them was you?) that in a way I am jealous of those who have just deconverted, as for me this led to some of the richest experiences I have ever had. I coined the phrase "existential shock" for what I felt (I don't know if that is a real term, but it's the best I could do to label it) and I think this change of world view, that opens up to so much that is positive and interesting, whilst letting fall away all the clutter of religion, can be one of life's most transforming experiences. It far outweighs the initial feeling of loss, and anger at being duped. This is the experience (for me, and I hope for you) that becomes so large.

(See excerpt here)

Any major change of world view can bring a "conversion experience" or trauma - but there is more to it than this. All the feelings we had when we were religious where human and natural feelings that we mistook for divine and supernatural things. I think this stunts them, no matter how good we thought they where at the time. The fact is "we hadn't seen nothing yet!" When these feelings can be appropriated to their real source then they become far more powerful. Such was my experience, and I hope it will be yours as the real world comes more into focus out of the confusing mist of misinterpretation that is religion.

Unlike xtians, we have been to both places of experience. I think that puts us in a unique position to understand which is more real. A vantage point the xtian cannot have.

Not everyone will have a big experience, but even in its more gentle form the same change of perception from clutter and misappropriation to interest and poignancy is the reward for the pain of honesty you presently feel.

Steve

..........and similarly...........

Does anyone here actually MISS their faith? I do sometimes. I like the freedom of thought and lifestyle that I have now, but sometimes, I can't help wishing there WERE a god, for some reason...yet I can never really go back and actually believe in one. The faith is just dead in me!

My mind and heart simply cannot fathom the concept of a god anymore, but some part of me longs for the old way I used to be. I miss that.

It feels really weird...can anyone relate??

That's not weird at all. I do not think that de-conversion should be psychologically easy. So much of what we do is habit too. When I de-converted one of the weirdest things for me was to go to sleep without some long prayer before I dropped off. It took some months before that feeling subsided. But subside it did - I have no trace of it now.

When we were religious we may have felt some deep things and had much fellowship. For some of us our religion was largely a positive experience, we left because we honestly didn't think it was true or moral after thinking it through for ages as you know. It upset me to find xtianity unbelievable. But far greater than that were the subsequent discoveries I made (I have since seen many others report essentially the same thing). I wrote before:-

"All the feelings we had when we were religious where human and natural feelings that we mistook for divine and supernatural things. I think this stunts them, no matter how good we thought they where at the time. The fact is "we hadn't seen nothing yet!" When these feelings can be appropriated to their real source then they become far more powerful. Such was my experience, and I hope it will be yours as the real world comes more into focus out of the confusing mist of misinterpretation that is religion."

Crime, evil thoughts, misery, no morality... is not the lot of the typical ex-tian. Here's what you get - a life of honesty, free, and more loving, and often a driving thirst for knowledge and interest in the world. No divine judgementalness, spiritual separation from others or easy condemnation of different  lifestyles. Instead the discovery of the poignancy and vulnerability of life. The desire to be moral because we can truly empathise with others in their messy humanity. Connection with the world rather than running against it.

That stops you missing religion as you get more used to your intellectual and emotional freedom.

I think it was Feuerbach who originally said that humans misascribe their finer feelings to god. If we don't know where they're coming from then how can we do them justice?

I think all the good stuff that you feel you might miss, you will continue to get - and get in a better way. You may not have the same group identity with your old church friends, but neither will you think anyone is going to hell, or has some kind of divine disapproval on them. When we leave religion we do not throw the baby out with the bath water, we just throw out the grubby bath water - and can at last appreciate the clean pink gurgling refreshed baby for a change..... (my wife is expecting, so you'll have to excuse my over the top metaphors!)

When I left xtianity I had more frequent and deeper "religious" or numinous experiences than when I was xtian. There is no reason to loose any of the good parts. Just more good things to find. I find the feelings of mortality, being a part of nature etc. to be far nobler, poignant and "spiritual" than anything I got out of religion. As for the clutter - away with it! Hoorah!

Steve

"We have shown that the substance and object of religion is altogether human; we have shown that divine wisdom is human wisdom; that the secret of theology is anthropology..." - Ludwig Feuerbach "The essence of xtianity"

.........and similarly.........

What have we really understood unless knowledge changes our view of things, even if it is ever so slightly? It is mere information held on a data bank. When I finally deconverted the few minutes before and after my "final crisis" did not see me with new knowledge, but different perceptions based on what I had already learnt.

What gets frustrating to me is that while we can consciously increase our knowledge, it doesn't seem that we can always consciously change our perception (how we actually see things and how that makes us feel).  In your case above, Steve, you had the knowledge already, so what exactly was it that caused your perception to finally change?

I don't really know. I had read heaps of stuff and had many doubts, discussions etc (you know the pattern...) and one evening I was reading something, pretty unrelated, and suddenly it was like a switch was thrown. It was like I had been puzzling over a hard maths problem for ages which was so far intractable and then suddenly, while I was thinking about something else, it was obvious. It wasn't a choice to not believe, or a last piece of knowledge that broke the camel's back for me. Just, I assume sub-consciously, a psychological switch was thrown and I saw it all differently. My brain did it for me. Everything made far more sense then, although far from facile.

I'm trying to think how best to formulate this for you.....Everything pieced together so well when I could finally look at religious experience and history as man-made. I kept saying "it's all human and natural rather than divine and supernatural!" I was looking at this idea full-on, that's when it made such sense after everything I had read/thought/discussed. I don't want to repeat my "story" again though. Far too long........

Did you feel in control of that?

I was initially very upset, but I didn't feel out of control though. I think it was like any discovery, only bigger than most. There is often a final moment of "Aha!" even though there were months/years of groundwork leading up to that moment. I don't think de-converting has a monopoly on that kind of realisation - rather I think we do it all the time, to lesser degrees, when we are trying to understand difficult things.

There are times when I want to change a perception I have to fit the knowledge that I have obtained and I consciously work on it, but the old perception persists in some form.  This is where I tend to believe that there may be subconscious beliefs and/or unexpressed feelings (neither of which are always based on knowledge that we ARE conscious of) that hold those perceptions in place.  At the same time, the way I perceive my environment and situation can shift around quite a lot and without conscious effort on my part, seemingly out of my control.  I may suddenly see things in a way that feels horrible and later snap back to "normal," without knowing how or why.  Anyone who has slipped in and out of depression will know what I mean.  Therefore, while I admit that my perceptions might be giving me a trustworthy account of *some* aspect of my reality, I don't always trust them very much to be giving me an accurate account of ultimate reality - whatever that may be.  I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on "perception."

Quite so. That's why I say perception without knowledge is an untrustworthy guide and knowledge that has absolutely no effect on your ideas is pretty empty information. We need to be on our guard, I would guess, that we have good testable (falsifiable) reasons for our biggest ideas rather than being swayed just by feeling. I said in my previous post that I was wary incase there was *any* possibility I had fooled myself out of xtianity, and spent time testing and thinking about that possibility. The first person who I told about my de-conversion (my atheist flat-mate of the time) said "I don't want to convert you back, but how can you be *sure* you have found it's untrue?" A pretty good response from him I think. Bertrand Russell defined the "good life" as one "inspired by love and guided by knowledge." Again, one without the other can be misleading and potentially dangerous.

Ultimately though, my non-belief is (as I have said before) to some extent Popperian, (although it is more than this as I will qualify in the next paragraph). It is a very powerful working hypothesis, not a proof of the non-existence of any particular deity. I also don't *choose* to not believe xtianity any more than I *choose* not to believe there is an invisible pink unicorn floating in the air in front of me. I am simply no longer that credulous, and cannot force myself to believe things, even if it were virtuous or responsible to do so.

In addition to this, of course, is the fact that religious beliefs are so often inconsistent and illogical. So even if I had no alternative hypothesis for life, religion would have to go. But then, up pops an alternative hypothesis automatically as soon as theism is debunked - atheism, and that one IMHO works, hence it is my working hypothesis. I might be wrong in my beliefs, but I don't feel it would be honest or responsible to choose a belief that now appears absurd.

For some reason, when I read your (Steve's) sentence about your "final crisis," I almost had chills thinking of the awesome moment when that irreversible paradigm shift finally does take place and changes one's life forever.

Yes, a paradigm shift which I think cannot reverse (unless we forget everything, lose our marbles or hear that elusive piece of knowledge/divine revelation/etc that god keeps failing to supply) . It wasn't scary for me (although I understand what you are saying about "chills"). It was more the result of a compulsion to find out what was going on to (hopefully) understand god better, or lose an illusion if there was one. But the "final crisis" was not a dark thing. It was emotional, but actually positive in its feeling despite the upset of falling into a paradigm change.

Musical appreciation without God

BTW, someone on this same (music) list stated that they couldn't understand how an atheist could like sacred music (such as Bach's ST. "Matthew's Passion", or Vaughn William's "JOB)   I was surprised (and pleased) that many (well, more than I expected)  responded that they were either atheist,agnostic or, from their description, deist.  The bottom line was that It's ridiculous to presume a belief system is a necessary condition to the possession of "spirituality," whatever the hell that term means.

I could go on for ages about this point, but suffice to say that it is a major xtian miscomprehension that they have beautiful feelings that others don't. I'm afraid that I thought a bit like this once too. Shame upon the old xtian me. I wonder if a xtian is almost forced to believe in their greater "spirituality" though, because if all these feelings and perceptions were available to non-xtians then just what is the point. Ditto for "morality." This only leaves us with being "saved from our sins" as a unique area for xtianity, which is a revolting doctrine and although many fundies love it, other xtians feel their journey is more of a spiritual thing. Too disturbing for xtians then if others also have all these fine feelings - *therefore*  - non-xtians can't possibly have them.

I suggest Karen Armstrong's "tongues of fire" to remove such attitudes.

Anyway, if an atheist can't like sacred music, why does this person (who wrote to the music list) think they go to the concerts! Some of my favourite music is "sacred" music, and I sing in three choirs which contain a lot of "church music" in their repertoire (we would miss a lot of good music if we couldn't appreciate it!) When I de-converted it never occurred to me to turf out all my religious music!

I would add though, that luckily most "classical" religious music is not in English and so I do not have to be put off by the silly worlds.

I once heard the Allegri Miserere in English instead of Latin, and the silly worlds made it sound a lot less "spiritual" and mysterious to me.

Also, if the important thing is what is in the words, why listen to music at all! Surely music is more than the text, and even often independent of the text.

Listen to Saint Augustine on the perils of musical appreciation:- "....Yet when it happens to me to be more moved by the singing than by what is sung, I confess myself to have sinned criminally, and then would rather not have heard the singing. See now the condition I am in! Weep with me, and weep for me, you who so control your feelings that good results ensue. As for you who do not thus act, these things concern you not. But Thou, O Lord my God, give ear, behold and see, and have mercy upon me, and heal me-Thou, in whose sight I am become a puzzle to myself: and this is my infirmity."

Great big wound up load of nonsense.

BTW in the old days there used to be lengthy sermons in-between the sections of Bach's oratorios, so for all those who think classical music is boring, just imagine what it was like in the days of Christendom!

(I'd better stop now and calm down by listening to Bruckner's Motets).

Steve

To Xtians causing a nuisance on the ex-xtian support list

I see scant reason that debating here is going to do anything positive unless there is a change of tack.

My (rhetorical) question is "why are you on this list?"

I don't mean go away, I mean what are you trying to achieve?

Are you here to convince us of the truth of xtianity? Were we never "true" xtians? Think again. Jesus Christ has been invited as many a personal saviour here. Xtianity was once the centre of the universe for some of us. Lived it, thought it, felt it, preached it, discussed it, prayed privately and publicly, taken religious groups and have been thanked for encouraging other christians and helping them in their walk with christ. Felt moved by religious experience and lost in numinous feeling of connection with God. Taken holy communion, partaken of agape's and retreats. Written many notebooks of xtian thoughts. That was me and I was liberal, have you listened to some of the others?

If you are here to convert us what about the others have also tried, why are you the prophet to this list? Correct me if I'm wrong somebody, but I don't think anyone was convinced before by the other xtian evangelists visiting the list. Not because our minds are made up but because we have already examined xtianity and have lived it so much. We became aware of intractable intellectual, moral, cultural, and psychological problems with xtianity. Do you think a xtian really "chooses" to leave that which they really believe and feel is the true heart of the universe? Do you not think we must have come to the pretty powerful conclusion that it is not true before we left? Would we not have thought of reasons to try to hold on as it was crumbling around us. How many ad-hoc hypothesis have some of us constructed to prevent the inevitable collapse of xtianity in out lives.

Xtians claim improvement in their lives when they convert to xtianity. Well, many here would have once claimed that too and now say they have found life without xtianity to be far better than with it. More honest, free, and loving. No divine judgementalness, spiritual separation from others or easy condemnation of different lifestyles. Instead the discovery of the poignancy and vulnerability of life. The desire to be moral because we can truly empathise with others in their messy humanity. Connection with the world rather than running against it.

Are you here to understand why we left? Then why don't you ask us, tell us how you feel in depth and we'll probably do the same (already the extian responses are  more detailed than your "rebuttal" type posts). We often found out why xtianity is untenable by doing a lot of research. Don't expect easy or pat answers to a complex question. This question involves human beings in all their richness on one hand, and the complexities of history, culture and intellect on the other.

Is this the sort of thing to be sorted out in a debate? How many books did I read, notebooks did I fill, TV and radio programs watch, people talk to, years spend wandering around thinking it all through? Hey, and I was liberal! But I believed in the existence of God, the divinity and resurrection of christ and the need for atonement. I sought the kingdom of God. What did we go through when we left? Do you know? What exactly do you know about what is going on outside of your belief system? I think that research is the most likely way you might understand too. Does this usually take a lot of effort? I should think so. Not every extian's story is identical, but there are many broad similarities and repeated patterns. Maybe we have discovered something.

I notice you are quick to reply to many criticisms. Can anyone be right so often and so easily? Are you sure you have not made more mistakes? It is okay to get things wrong, I get the impression that your swift replies to each little point may be more to do with ego, trying to feel you're "in the right" than an attempt to understand. In your favour you sometimes show you can take the heat of a flame, good on you for that. When I post I am often nervous that I'm going to say something stupid and get shot down for it, but does that really matter too much? I would much rather test my ideas, get bollocked and find out what's wrong with them than go through great mental exercises trying to rebuff rebuttals in order to feel smug about my ideas. The people here are very intelligent, there's much to learn and enjoy. Why not calm down and take a look at what's going on. I've given useful URL's.

Are you going through a crisis of faith and this is your way of exploring it? If so talk about it. We've been there and know how crappy it can feel. I don't think anyone will be anything but supportive in that circumstance.

Are you just mad or not very bright? Then I suppose we will just have to endure you until you get bored and move off elsewhere. I hope not too many of the regulars on the list will get pissed off and move too.

Is it something else? Why not explain it to us properly. Take your time, it is not a race. You're a human being and hence a complex creature. Write a long and considered post from the heart.

You know we have said enough times here that being a xtian affected us in many ways. Coming away was not (for most) just an intellectual matter (although it is very important), and there is much that is hard, if not impossible to convey by "debate." If a xtian is convinced that it is right and just that God sends unbaptised dead babies to hell to endure horrific pain for ever then how are we to communicate to such a xtian the sickness and travesty of humanity that such a belief entails? On what level can we communicate? Maybe this is an extreme example (although there are xtians who take that view) but it also goes for many of the subtler aspects of xtian belief. I see you as another human being, mistaken, maybe even brainwashed, but still a human being full of hopes and fears and psychological tangle. I see us as all in the same boat together, no matter how much we disagree or are offended by each other's beliefs. How do you see me? Do you see me as someone without a relationship with a deity? How can you connect to others who you may see as so fundamentally split off from the ultimate reality of the universe? Is this an intrinsic religious problem for you, or do you not feel it at all?

How much does truth matter? Does it matter enough to you that you are willing to do more than just immerse yourself in religion? Do you actually care enough about reality that if the central claims of xtianity are untrue then you would like to know that? What would you be willing to do to find this out? Do you trust God enough to guide you in an honest enquiry for the truthfulness of xtian claims?

My wish is that you open up, take some time reflecting rather than posting, allow people on this list to talk with each other more rather than provoke us into responding to you. There are many people here with interesting things to say. I feel like I've hogged the list when I post on two consecutive days because the others have got a lot to say that is so interesting. How do you feel?

You've had a large chunk of space on here, but why not try for quality of post which would be far more interesting for us and I hope for you too.

Does this make any sense? Is it possible to communicate with you in a manner that will draw something worthwhile out? How humane do you feel - enough to feel belief in hell is a serious moral defect? Enough to question the point of a god who did nothing whilst alsatians ripped the foetuses out of pregnant women and Jews were shot in the genitals whilst they were strung up on barbed wire for target practise? Does this make you think, or do you just say "it was the devil" and that sorts it out for you? Enough to take time to think, go away and do some decent background work?

What do you really think and feel? How deep can you go?

Steve

Reply to a teenager who was telling ex-xtians that they will rightfully go to hell

What have I done or said that made anyone on this list, think I look down upon them? Nothing,

No, not nothing - you said this:

For example about Hell: God loves everyone. I heard a quote once, that said, "Sin is mans way of saying no to God, and Hell is God's way of saying "Ok." God is our creator, He can chose weather or not be can go to Hell, ot Heaven, or whatever, were His creation. God says its up to us, we can go to Heaven or we can go to Hell.

That is a pretty big something, as I will discuss in a bit. I'm afraid if you continue posting that sort of thing it will all end in tears just like the other xtians who have "come to learn" have found out. Meanwhile...

When Glenn replied with this:

How old is this god of yours? - sounds like the big IT is about 2, with an IQ many points below plant life.

You said:

That's not very nice.

You also said:

all you folks have been doing is making silly, childish remarks about me personally and Christ. If you don't want me here, hey, I'll leave, but you're all assuming things about me when you don't even know me. Can't we all just get along?

Well, I'm glad you are interested in discerning what is nice and want to get along with everybody. If you can manage a thoughtful dialogue then I don't mind your presence, although some here are at a more sensitive stage of their de-conversion and would like the list to be a safe haven from xtians. I feel sorry for them when xtians come here and tell us that it is justified that we should go to hell.

A week or so ago I was musing on the list about how people can commit atrocities against each other. I wondered if it was only possible as long as a person did not have adequate understanding of - or rather empathy with - the person they were hurting. This is the problem that I see with your statement:

"Sin is mans way of saying no to God, and Hell is God's way of saying "OK."

I wonder what this really means for you. You claimed we were "not nice" and yet you had no qualms about calmly saying that those who reject xtianity (us) should go to hell. It's God's way of saying "OK". Are you really content with such a god? Do you not think saying you agree with God condemning us to infinite torture was a little worse than Glenn's mockery of such a ridiculous god? Do you feel that your religion is a loving and spiritual thing or does such an attitude of hellfire and spiritual separation blunt your feelings for non-xtians? Are the most important things to you love, spirituality, knowledge and a quest for understanding, or to hold onto xtian dogma? What should you do if you found they were in conflict? I guess you would currently claim they were not conflicting, but if you could write a justification of hell without seeing the cruelty and absurdity of this doctrine, then I do not think you can be connecting with those you believe are "justifiably" condemned to such an atrocious horror.

When we dare to ask of xtian dogma "is this really nice?" (or even true) and are not ruled by fear of what God will do to us or not give us if we examine the evidence and our feelings, then a great deal of finer feelings can open up. This was the experience of so many of us here, and it comes as a real revelation after having been a xtian that so much more is possible. Have you heard of the Stockholm syndrome and thought how that relates to xtianity?

What have I done or said that made anyone on this list, think I look down upon them?

So, I think it seems you are looking down on us because you have tried to justified our holy damnation and, as a xtian at 18, presumed you could teach us something by posting your justification. Do you not think we have thought about these things rather a lot before coming to our ex-tian position and, for many of us, (relatively) great dotage? Also, there are a few here that are even younger than yourself who have shown greater understanding because they do not justify hell and realise how cruel such a belief is. Condoning holy torture is a serious moral defect that eats at the core of our humanity. Do you *really* understand how you can justify it? I would advise you to confront the goodness and honesty of such a belief. Once belief in hell goes, a lot of insidiousness goes too. It becomes a lot easier to be "nice" and get along with people when you don't think they deserve to go to hell.

To believe in hell and a good, loving and just god, means believing that hell is justified. IMO hell justification is the most horrible and awful thing xtians say. Makes me very glad not to be associated with xtianity.

Belief in hell rots your soul!

Steve

The mother of all rants from a new ex-xtian (not me).

When I get to the judgement place and God looks for my name on the list, I'll beat him to it and say "I'm not on there, and I forgive you for creating a world which made it so I couldn't even *choose* to believe". I forgive you for creating us even though you knew most of us would burn in your putrid Hell.  I forgive you for being what you are.  You can't help it...You're God...You have to be what you are.  I forgive you for allowing babies to be born when you knew they would only cause pain in their life.  I forgive you for not destroying the devil when He first fell; instead you let him run around f*cking over people's minds at his pleasure, and with your permission.  I forgive you for creating in us a different sense of justice.  I forgive you for making us so weak that we could drive ourselves insane with the idea that there were people dying that would have to burn forever in your Hell.  I forgive you for making most of us so that we could only look in disgust at the things that you've done to your creations.  Surely in your perfect mind, killing masses of your beloved creations is not a bad thing.  But for some reason you made people like me, who feel sick to their stomach when they read of the rapes, genocides, family massacres, and uncalled-for-death sentences that we in our depraved stupidity can't see the justice in.

Praise the Lord who pries mother from child for his glory.  Glory to the God who turns son against father in his infinite wisdom.

Glory be to God for his vague guide to salvation passed down the last two millennia.  Praise to him for allowing many different versions of it to float around confusing his less than completely faithful sheep.  Let's sing to the Lord for splitting his church into hundreds of denominations, all damning each other to Hell, and only stopping that long enough to damn the rest of the world to Hell.

Let's put our hands together for blessed Jesus for making sure that his Earth disagrees on many points of science with his Bible so that the less than perfect in faith will be thrown into his lovely brimstone lined fiery grave.

How glorious that God found the best way to spread his word, through fear, torture, and hatred.  He surely does know his creations.  How perfect the Bible is.  How well it crams fear down the throats of its followers, to keep them in line.  How neatly it gives reasons for those who dare to stray.  Isn't it God's glorious hand that crushed all the books of learning and records in those early years after the Son's death, just to make sure that there wouldn't be any outside evidence for Jesus' existence.  How perfect!  Now, it is only the most devout that will reach his pearly gates.  How pure those in heaven will be.  How rich their songs of praise will sound to the Lord almighty's ears, mixed perfectly with the screams of the trillions in Hell.

Sure...It sounds cruel to us pieces of sh*t, but it's just the way it must be.  God is unchanging...He can't help it that the perfect way to be God is to make a lot of souls and then make sure that most of them spend all eternity in merciless pain.  You can't blame God for being God.

Glory, Glory, hallelujah!

I need a ****ing psychiatrist...

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